This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Almost everyone is doing this (usually the former), though. What is even the middle ground between your (a) - looking for or working toward a serious relationship that can lead to marriage and (b) - being noncommittal and having, or trying to have, casual sex?
Maybe some weird poly people (although I suppose by their definition many are “happily married”), but even serial monogamists are usually trying to find a long term relationship, they just fail at it for various reasons. I don’t know that I’ve ever met anyone outside those two categories since high school, maybe (and even there kids in their first real relationship often think they’ll get married, because that’s what it feels like when you’re 16). What even exists outside those two groupings?
The things that are not “happily married” or “slutting it up” are usually the product of people trying sincerely for either (again, usually the former).
Serial Monogamy, and particularly cohabitation prior to marriage, that's what I'm arguing against. We're going to be arguing definitions and personal anecdata here, but there's nothing else to go off of. The whole concept of a "Long Term Relationship" that is not on a direct and planned path to marriage is that middle ground I'm arguing against. You phrased (a) as "a serious relationship that can lead to marriage," I phrased it as "on the path to getting married." That's a difference big enough to drive a truck through.
By "Path to Getting Married" I mean direct, short term, achievable (within two years) timelines and checkpoints that will lead to marriage. As in: next year, or when we graduate in two years. Not "Eh, maybe, eventually, in a few years, when I've got everything else in my life in order, I would consider starting to have a conversation about marriage." More like, before any commitment is made the conversation is had about what you're looking for, what the timeline is, and what the checkpoints are. We're distinguishing intent here, so arguably it is useless advice, but what I want is a ruthless look at whether you really plan on marrying someone, if you picture the rest of your life with them and no one else, and if not you should cut them out immediately. I'd argue most 20-somethings aren't in those kinds of relationships, they're in a series of vague sort-of long term relationships from 3 months to a year, that both parties sort of understand are unlikely to end in marriage but are good enough for right now; when they picture their lives they imagine they will have more of these kinds of relationships.
Maybe your friends were more direct, in which case I applaud them, I found that most of my friends got into multiple "serious" relationships over the course of their lives, and many (largely women) missed out on opportunities they turned down for a partner who wandered off anyway, or wasted their 20s on a series of losers and wound up hitting their 30s unhappily single when they would have preferred to have been married. Or moved across the country to stay with a girlfriend who ditched them. Or spent their college years doting on a sexually frigid girlfriend they didn't wind up marrying anyway when they could have been out at parties. Or moved in together, broke up, and got screwed on everything from leases to furniture to pets with no legal framework to determine who owned what. Or merged social circles, only to break up and make everything awkward as their independent friend groups had withered on the vine years ago.
Serial monogamy is a trap. It lures people into a false sense of chastity, it's ok if we're in a relationship and we love each other, what total bullshit, serial monogamy is temporal polygamy, your body count isn't discounted for saying you were dating. It lures people into a false sense of security, moving or making financial or social decisions based on a person who can disappear from your life with no obligations to you whatsoever. It lures people into making bad tradeoffs, the opportunity cost of investing in one person you don't end up with instead of enjoying pleasure, freedom, and choice. It makes people into liars, normalizes lying about one's intentions.
It is best if one is brutally honest. If one is looking for a casual encounter, whether sexual or merely someone to go to the movies with, say so. If one is looking for marriage, say so and under what circumstances it will occur, plot a course for marriage. Don't drift vaguely in the direction of marriage and hope you wash up on its shore (or worse, that you don't).
I know you married young, but in my experience this just isn’t true. Almost everyone I know in a long-term (certainly after 2+ years) relationship expects that they will marry that person unless something very surprising happens. They don’t picture that they will have many other relationships in their life, they’re expectant this will be the relationship that leads to marriage.
Serial monogamy is what trying to date seriously for marriage in modern secular culture looks like. You’re not particularly trad and have no problem with sex before marriage so I’m not even sure what you’re suggesting the difference is between dating for marriage and want most people who want a relationship are doing, really.
Is your body count discounted if you have an open relationship and sleep with others after you’re married? I’m surprised you’re commenting on a sense of chastity (I’m still curious about how you’d feel if your wife sought out a male lover, even for a one-night thing). I agree that serial monogamy can be an excuse for promiscuity, but that’s really because the term is broad enough to fit a large number of behaviors.
I don't particularly value chastity for myself, but many people do, and I want those people to be able to get what they want out of life. I eat meat, and basically can't get through four hours without dairy, but when I'm cooking for a vegan friend I do my best to make sure that what I'm serving allows them to stay within their beliefs. I've seen quite a lot of girls do the whole "Well it's ok to have sex if he says he loves me" thing, compromising their personal code of morals only to be disappointed over and over again, and find themselves in a quiet crisis by their mid to late 20s. A lot of people use the faux-commitment of a "Serious Relationship" to deal with their guilt over sex that they want to have. I'd like to see those people think about things honestly, and then decide to make love or to remain chaste on an honest, rather than a false, basis. Confront the realities of what is going, and see if you really believe that what you are doing is good. If you think it is, great, do it; if you think it isn't, don't.
As for my wife, if she said that her being free to seek out a male lover was a condition of our open relationship, we would then close the relationship and be monogamous. Our relationship structure has always been about what works for both of us and makes us both happy. I'm not pretending I'm some hyper-libidinous-alpha-Dionysus who needs fifteen lovers to be satisfied, I don't need anything extravagant but it's fun and if it makes everyone happy I have no problem taking it. I've been happily monogamous before and I will be again in the future.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think the implication is that you shouldn't enter a relationship (maybe you thought it was marriage potential, maybe the person you were slutting it up with wanted to take it further and you went eh, why not, still getting laid) and, once it starts looking like you're in something serious but it's not about to lead to a marriage (or you don't want that), you continue dithering and sticking around with it instead of breaking it up.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link