naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
I'm pretty familiar with your style, it's pretty entertaining, so I tend to stop scrolling when your name pops up in the feed .
Thank you. I like your style too. I do think a bit of spice is more entertaining and “drives engagement”, aside from all the other benefits, like the pedagogic eviscerations described above.
But the truth is you're pretty antagonistic
Perhaps, compared to the median here, now. But we’re talking about a flock that started off exceptionnally tame, and was then shaved and sterilized (see darwin and all the others).
It's good to have the same standard for others as you do for yourself, but other people might not have that much of an issue admitting they're wrong.
But did you admit you were wrong on musk and the hassidim?
He would jump in with a bombastic claim, it would turn out he cannot back in literally any way, he would indeed back off, and then just do the same thing again in the future. People would have a lot more sympathy for him, if he wasn't acting like GPT prompted to defend progressivism no matter what.
I agree he did that, but those constant GPT/ Devil’s advocate comments, while not optimal, were still valuable. He defended his ideology as best he could. It was actually a good signal – you knew that if darwin retreated into total bullshit and random one-liners, progressives really had zero case on that issue. Like when a lawyer starts arguing against the death penalty instead of arguing the innocence of his client.
He has not been replaced by anyone. Sometimes our more-progressive posters will make arguments, and they’re usually of high quality and very polite and everything, but they cannot equal the sheer volume of progressive perspective/apologia darwin helpfully provided. For a sub so focused on condemning the woke, we really should grant them legal representation in every discussion.
Perhaps, compared to the median here, now. But we’re talking about a flock that started off exceptionnally tame, and was then shaved and sterilized (see darwin and all the others).
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this is a pretty weird point to make. For one, if anything, we ended up "untamed". Some of the more gentle posters flamed out, other got blackpilled and aren't in the mood for going through the motions of pretending there can be a good faith basis for whatever they're disagreeing with.
This point is further undermined by the example you posted below. You can't tell me you're exhibiting a normal level of aggression while everyone else here is tame and sterile, while complaining about the time you were civil and got aggressive push-back.
To the example itself, you're right. What I thought was happening definitely was not happening there. On the other hand, your original post was at +42/-8 and the other ones hover at -10-ish. It looks like the majority is on your side, but they moved on, while a manospherish core stayed behind to disagree with you. This seems neither here nor there, re: darwin.
But did you admit you were wrong on musk and the hassidim?
Other than the downvotes, no one really bothered pushing back against my take on the Hassidim, so I don't see how am I supposed to admit I was wrong. As for Musk, like I said, I left the conversation with 2 outstanding bets, basically if Starship makes it to orbit, I'm wrong. So I don't think it's hard to come up with a way to leave people with the impression you're participating in good faith, even when running into an irreconcilable difference of opinion.
I agree he did that, but those constant GPT/ Devil’s advocate comments, while not optimal, were still valuable.
I disagree. Originally my hopes for this place were that we might get people of different ideologies could gather here and come to some kind of synthesis, and push the world in a more reasonable direction. That ended up being hopelessly naive for unrelated reasons, but "GPT prompted to defend a particular side no matter what" is completely toxic to the idea. A less naive use for this place is to try to understand where the other side is coming from, where exactly the disagreement lies etc. You won't change the world with that, or solve any problems, really, but it is edifying. GPT Devil's Advocate is toxic to that as well.
you knew that if darwin retreated into total bullshit and random one-liners, progressives really had zero case on that issue.
Not really. He could write a whole essay even when the left really had zero case on the issue, for example by diverting the conversation to a completely different issue, but adding enough padding that you don't notice the topic has changed.
For a sub so focused on condemning the woke, we really should grant them legal representation in every discussion.
I disagree. Any group you do this for will end up shitting up the place.
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this is a pretty weird point to make. For one, if anything, we ended up "untamed".
I’m making a distinction between the antagonism of a mob (which is usually both high and invisible) and the antagonism of a lone opponent (which is far more harshly perceived, monitored and punished, and therefore rare these days. Although I’m pretty sure the mods didn’t intend this). A man will do things as part of the mob he would never do on on his own, so the antagonism of the mob doesn’t require the individuals in them to be anything other than tame. It’s a normal_commenter + overwhelming_majority_support = total dickwad theory.
The quality of being antagonistic to an appropriate degree, especially to the worst parts of a mob, has disappeared from themotte. Our regular progressive posters, with all due respect, are far too kind to the mob, show undue deference to it. They're kind of forced to by the rules and mob rule. If they acted appropriately (ie like darwin, by answering the antagonism of the mob) they would be banned for it (so would mob member #17, but he's replaceable). So the few people who have some ‘contrarian antagonism’ left are relatively close to being banned.
That is why there is almost no ideological diversity here. It's simply not expressed anymore, as soriek said. Guys like darwin protected the expression of their viewpoints, they were guard dogs against the mob.
I’m making a distinction between the antagonism of a mob (which is usually both high and invisible) and the antagonism of a lone opponent (which is far more harshly perceived, monitored and punished, and therefore rare these days. Although I’m pretty sure the mods didn’t intend this). A man will do things as part of the mob he would never do on on his own, so the antagonism of the mob doesn’t require the individuals in them to be anything other than tame. It’s a normal_commenter + overwhelming_majority_support = total dickwad theory.
If the idea is that mob dynamics somehow turn "tame" behavior into "dickwad" behavior, you're losing me. I can understand it can be overwhelming for a certain type of personality, and I'm for minimizing these sort of dynamics, but the idea it is somehow equivalent to having an actual troll being antagonistic (and worse, that we therefore need actual trolls to pus back against the mob), makes no sense to me. And again, your example contradicts this. The dude calling you a clown wasn't "tame", he should have eaten a ban for that, but probably no one reported him.
On the other hand, if the idea is that the members of the mob encourage each other to be more dickwadish - sure, but then just ban them, don't try to balance them with trolls. Someone like darwin doesn't help here, he makes things worse.
That is why there is almost no ideological diversity here. It's simply not expressed anymore, as soriek said. Guys like darwin protected the expression of their viewpoints, they were guard dogs against the mob.
There are advantages to ideological diversity, but aiming for it as a goal in itself will encourage all sorts of negative things, from outright trolling to crybullying.
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Thank you. I like your style too. I do think a bit of spice is more entertaining and “drives engagement”, aside from all the other benefits, like the pedagogic eviscerations described above.
Perhaps, compared to the median here, now. But we’re talking about a flock that started off exceptionnally tame, and was then shaved and sterilized (see darwin and all the others).
But did you admit you were wrong on musk and the hassidim?
I agree he did that, but those constant GPT/ Devil’s advocate comments, while not optimal, were still valuable. He defended his ideology as best he could. It was actually a good signal – you knew that if darwin retreated into total bullshit and random one-liners, progressives really had zero case on that issue. Like when a lawyer starts arguing against the death penalty instead of arguing the innocence of his client.
He has not been replaced by anyone. Sometimes our more-progressive posters will make arguments, and they’re usually of high quality and very polite and everything, but they cannot equal the sheer volume of progressive perspective/apologia darwin helpfully provided. For a sub so focused on condemning the woke, we really should grant them legal representation in every discussion.
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this is a pretty weird point to make. For one, if anything, we ended up "untamed". Some of the more gentle posters flamed out, other got blackpilled and aren't in the mood for going through the motions of pretending there can be a good faith basis for whatever they're disagreeing with.
This point is further undermined by the example you posted below. You can't tell me you're exhibiting a normal level of aggression while everyone else here is tame and sterile, while complaining about the time you were civil and got aggressive push-back.
To the example itself, you're right. What I thought was happening definitely was not happening there. On the other hand, your original post was at +42/-8 and the other ones hover at -10-ish. It looks like the majority is on your side, but they moved on, while a manospherish core stayed behind to disagree with you. This seems neither here nor there, re: darwin.
Other than the downvotes, no one really bothered pushing back against my take on the Hassidim, so I don't see how am I supposed to admit I was wrong. As for Musk, like I said, I left the conversation with 2 outstanding bets, basically if Starship makes it to orbit, I'm wrong. So I don't think it's hard to come up with a way to leave people with the impression you're participating in good faith, even when running into an irreconcilable difference of opinion.
I disagree. Originally my hopes for this place were that we might get people of different ideologies could gather here and come to some kind of synthesis, and push the world in a more reasonable direction. That ended up being hopelessly naive for unrelated reasons, but "GPT prompted to defend a particular side no matter what" is completely toxic to the idea. A less naive use for this place is to try to understand where the other side is coming from, where exactly the disagreement lies etc. You won't change the world with that, or solve any problems, really, but it is edifying. GPT Devil's Advocate is toxic to that as well.
Not really. He could write a whole essay even when the left really had zero case on the issue, for example by diverting the conversation to a completely different issue, but adding enough padding that you don't notice the topic has changed.
I disagree. Any group you do this for will end up shitting up the place.
I’m making a distinction between the antagonism of a mob (which is usually both high and invisible) and the antagonism of a lone opponent (which is far more harshly perceived, monitored and punished, and therefore rare these days. Although I’m pretty sure the mods didn’t intend this). A man will do things as part of the mob he would never do on on his own, so the antagonism of the mob doesn’t require the individuals in them to be anything other than tame. It’s a normal_commenter + overwhelming_majority_support = total dickwad theory.
The quality of being antagonistic to an appropriate degree, especially to the worst parts of a mob, has disappeared from themotte. Our regular progressive posters, with all due respect, are far too kind to the mob, show undue deference to it. They're kind of forced to by the rules and mob rule. If they acted appropriately (ie like darwin, by answering the antagonism of the mob) they would be banned for it (so would mob member #17, but he's replaceable). So the few people who have some ‘contrarian antagonism’ left are relatively close to being banned.
That is why there is almost no ideological diversity here. It's simply not expressed anymore, as soriek said. Guys like darwin protected the expression of their viewpoints, they were guard dogs against the mob.
If the idea is that mob dynamics somehow turn "tame" behavior into "dickwad" behavior, you're losing me. I can understand it can be overwhelming for a certain type of personality, and I'm for minimizing these sort of dynamics, but the idea it is somehow equivalent to having an actual troll being antagonistic (and worse, that we therefore need actual trolls to pus back against the mob), makes no sense to me. And again, your example contradicts this. The dude calling you a clown wasn't "tame", he should have eaten a ban for that, but probably no one reported him.
On the other hand, if the idea is that the members of the mob encourage each other to be more dickwadish - sure, but then just ban them, don't try to balance them with trolls. Someone like darwin doesn't help here, he makes things worse.
There are advantages to ideological diversity, but aiming for it as a goal in itself will encourage all sorts of negative things, from outright trolling to crybullying.
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