naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
29415 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Lol, I’m certainly not defending Keith’s stupid views on Jews, they’re unsurprising - hardcore antisemitism is (not exclusively, of course) a particularly Irish thing even in the US, witness how many of the most hardcore American antisemitic DR types are of Irish descent. Sinn Fein were hardcore pro-Palestinian for decades, and while Woods disavows them now for supporting immigration, Irish nationalism has always been somewhat thirdworldist in character.
But yeah, there was a good meme I saw today (maybe retweeted by BAP, idk) about just how stupid this is for the dissident right. Antisemitism aside, the worst thing for anyone who wants to reduce immigration from the Islamic world to Europe is to signal boost sympathy for dispossessed or oppressed Muslims and their (many, many) causes. Whether or not the people of Gaza end up fleeing to the West, there are a billion others who might.
By contrast Jews are rare in Europe, and in 50 years almost all will either have left, have assimilated, or be in insular Chareidi communities largely uninvolved in secular affairs.
hardcore antisemitism is (not exclusively, of course) a particularly Irish thing even in the US
Maybe I just can’t see the water I’m swimming in but I don’t think modern Irish people are antisemitic (Keith Woods and 4chan posters excepted). The first half of the 20th century was pretty bad (like the Limerick Boycott), but since then Jews are barely talked about in Ireland because there are only like 1,000 of them. The anti-Semitic stuff I heard from Muslims and Poles in Ireland struck me as a fairly foreign thing when I first heard it.
Irish people oppose Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians for the same reason they opposed South African Apartheid: not because Jews or Boers are inherently worthy of hate but because if you squint you can sort of draw parallels with Ireland’s experience under British rule. Irish people support a Jewish leader in Ukraine because Russian actions remind them of British colonialism, they supported the Sinn Féin Rabbi when being pro-Israel meant fighting the British, they oppose the Israeli state’s treatment of Palestinians because it reminds them of what the British did. Everything is interpreted through the lens of our history, we’re too self-centered to be anti-Semites.
I completely agree that very very few modern Irish people are antisemitic. It is notable how many American antisemites (and dissident rightists in general, actually) are of Irish descent, and how there was in part a kind of longstanding low level enmity between Jews and Irish in some cities for many years though. My grandfather grew up in Brooklyn when it really was Irish, Italians and Jews (primarily) and always said that while the Italians and Jews typically got along mostly amenably, the Irish and the Jews didn’t, it was just how it was. Clearly that enmity predates even the foundation of Israel, so can’t be derived from sympathy with the Palestinians in that case, and while American antisemitism was generally more pronounced among Catholics than Protestants, that described both the Irish and Italians, so can’t be it. Possibly they were competing for the same kinds of things.
MadMonzer
Temporarily embarrassed liberal elite
2rafa 1yr ago
This is statistics 101. In a world where there are a lot more Irish-Americans than there are anti-Semitic Americans, a sufficiently strong positive correlation between the two pretty much guarantees that both of the following apply:
I don't think we disagree in that case. I don't know much about Irish-Americans outside of their influence back in Ireland (they were always more bitter towards the British), so I'll take your word for it.
By stereotype when I was growing up in London in the 1990's, the Irish were more likely to be anti-Semitic than the British. Overt anti-Semitism was sufficiently rare that I couldn't gauge the truth of the stereotype. On the far left there was an element of IRA-PLO solidarity, but most Irish people in both the mainland UK and Republic of Ireland despised the IRA by this point, so that can't have been the main thing. Some of it went back to the 19th century, when Disraeli opposed devolution to Ireland and Irish Catholic politicians responded by wheeling out all the usual anti-Semitic tropes. (Even in the 1860's, Disraeli's Jewish ancestry was not an issue in mainstream British politics). The piece de resistance was a speech by Daniel O'Connell comparing Disraeli to the unrepentant robber crucified alongside Jesus and speculating about their family resemblance.
The piece de resistance was a speech by Daniel O'Connell comparing Disraeli to the unrepentant robber crucified alongside Jesus and speculating about their family resemblance.
Yeah I remember reading that, Disraeli's comeback was a good one: 'Yes, I am a Jew, and while the ancestors of the right honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon.'
Again I won't dispute personal experience with immigrant communities and maybe I'm just not seeing it myself, but Ireland is almost a different country to what it was 30 years ago so the historical picture of Irish attitudes could be completely accurate and yet not hold true today. There is definitely a very anti-semitic strain growing in the far-right in Ireland, but the people I know like that are young and picked it up from the internet.
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Notes -
Lol, I’m certainly not defending Keith’s stupid views on Jews, they’re unsurprising - hardcore antisemitism is (not exclusively, of course) a particularly Irish thing even in the US, witness how many of the most hardcore American antisemitic DR types are of Irish descent. Sinn Fein were hardcore pro-Palestinian for decades, and while Woods disavows them now for supporting immigration, Irish nationalism has always been somewhat thirdworldist in character.
But yeah, there was a good meme I saw today (maybe retweeted by BAP, idk) about just how stupid this is for the dissident right. Antisemitism aside, the worst thing for anyone who wants to reduce immigration from the Islamic world to Europe is to signal boost sympathy for dispossessed or oppressed Muslims and their (many, many) causes. Whether or not the people of Gaza end up fleeing to the West, there are a billion others who might.
By contrast Jews are rare in Europe, and in 50 years almost all will either have left, have assimilated, or be in insular Chareidi communities largely uninvolved in secular affairs.
Maybe I just can’t see the water I’m swimming in but I don’t think modern Irish people are antisemitic (Keith Woods and 4chan posters excepted). The first half of the 20th century was pretty bad (like the Limerick Boycott), but since then Jews are barely talked about in Ireland because there are only like 1,000 of them. The anti-Semitic stuff I heard from Muslims and Poles in Ireland struck me as a fairly foreign thing when I first heard it.
Irish people oppose Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians for the same reason they opposed South African Apartheid: not because Jews or Boers are inherently worthy of hate but because if you squint you can sort of draw parallels with Ireland’s experience under British rule. Irish people support a Jewish leader in Ukraine because Russian actions remind them of British colonialism, they supported the Sinn Féin Rabbi when being pro-Israel meant fighting the British, they oppose the Israeli state’s treatment of Palestinians because it reminds them of what the British did. Everything is interpreted through the lens of our history, we’re too self-centered to be anti-Semites.
I completely agree that very very few modern Irish people are antisemitic. It is notable how many American antisemites (and dissident rightists in general, actually) are of Irish descent, and how there was in part a kind of longstanding low level enmity between Jews and Irish in some cities for many years though. My grandfather grew up in Brooklyn when it really was Irish, Italians and Jews (primarily) and always said that while the Italians and Jews typically got along mostly amenably, the Irish and the Jews didn’t, it was just how it was. Clearly that enmity predates even the foundation of Israel, so can’t be derived from sympathy with the Palestinians in that case, and while American antisemitism was generally more pronounced among Catholics than Protestants, that described both the Irish and Italians, so can’t be it. Possibly they were competing for the same kinds of things.
This is statistics 101. In a world where there are a lot more Irish-Americans than there are anti-Semitic Americans, a sufficiently strong positive correlation between the two pretty much guarantees that both of the following apply:
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I don't think we disagree in that case. I don't know much about Irish-Americans outside of their influence back in Ireland (they were always more bitter towards the British), so I'll take your word for it.
By stereotype when I was growing up in London in the 1990's, the Irish were more likely to be anti-Semitic than the British. Overt anti-Semitism was sufficiently rare that I couldn't gauge the truth of the stereotype. On the far left there was an element of IRA-PLO solidarity, but most Irish people in both the mainland UK and Republic of Ireland despised the IRA by this point, so that can't have been the main thing. Some of it went back to the 19th century, when Disraeli opposed devolution to Ireland and Irish Catholic politicians responded by wheeling out all the usual anti-Semitic tropes. (Even in the 1860's, Disraeli's Jewish ancestry was not an issue in mainstream British politics). The piece de resistance was a speech by Daniel O'Connell comparing Disraeli to the unrepentant robber crucified alongside Jesus and speculating about their family resemblance.
Yeah I remember reading that, Disraeli's comeback was a good one: 'Yes, I am a Jew, and while the ancestors of the right honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon.'
Again I won't dispute personal experience with immigrant communities and maybe I'm just not seeing it myself, but Ireland is almost a different country to what it was 30 years ago so the historical picture of Irish attitudes could be completely accurate and yet not hold true today. There is definitely a very anti-semitic strain growing in the far-right in Ireland, but the people I know like that are young and picked it up from the internet.
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