naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
2.1 million is a lot of refugees. How does that measure up to previous crises, like Syria, etc? Is it effectively the same but all at once or a much bigger number?
Obviously, refugee count is far from only impact. Palestinians are not going to Europe.
Unless someone plays 7D chess and really wants right across Europe to win elections.
Unless someone plays 7D chess and really wants right across Europe to win elections.
Voting "right-wing" literally does not do anything in Western Europe.
In Eastern-Europe "right-wing" voters still overwhelmingly support fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO while simultaneously asking EU politely to stop sending migrants.
The only way out of this endless All-Star loop Europe is stuck in is through violent revolution and rejection of democratic institutions.
In Eastern-Europe "right-wing" voters still overwhelmingly support fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO
Why the heck they would prefer to live under Russia? Even if you would go with "USA and Russia are equally bad"[1] then still playing empire far away against close empire makes perfect sense.
Also, if you think that "fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO" is happening you should discuss it with other contrarians who thing that USA supporting Ukraine is mistaken and should be isolating rather than helping Eastern Europe.
[1] they are not, unless you put high value on stuff like rampant homosexual rape in military
Voting "right-wing" literally does not do anything in Western Europe.
Even if true, then importing Palestinians is still going to boost them.
Why the heck they would prefer to live under Russia? Even if you would go with "USA and Russia are equally bad"[1] then still playing empire far away against close empire makes perfect sense.
Russia is not actively attempting to genocide the natives.
Also, if you think that "fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO" is happening you should discuss it with other contrarians who thing that USA supporting Ukraine is mistaken and should be isolating rather than helping Eastern Europe.
USA should not be supporting the Ukraine government sending the average Ukrainian man who has not fled the country yet to his death.
Not sure what you mean by isolating.
Foreign policy does not have to be a 2-position switch between Cuba-style blockade and CIA-led 'color revolution'.
Perhaps the US could consider trading without meddling politically?
Even if true, then importing Palestinians is still going to boost them.
Boost what? It's certainly going to make european governments more authoritarian, but just because they police the migrants harder does not mean that they will stop oppressing the natives.
If anything, the post-9/11 policies enacted by the West have mostly been used to send right-wingers to jail over facebook posts or mostly peaceful election results protests.
Russia is not actively attempting to genocide the natives.
No matter how you call it: what they did in Mariupol, Nova Kakhovka, Bucha, Odessa and so on is not conductive to human flourishing. (and yes, this time they are less murderous than previously, though it is fairly low bar given Holodomor death toll)
Also, "is not actively attempting to genocide the natives." is passed also by EU. And basically everyone else. Clearing "they do not want murder your nation" bar is not sufficient to answer "Why the heck they would prefer to live under Russia?".
No matter how you call it: what they did in Mariupol, Nova Kakhovka, Bucha, Odessa and so on is not conductive to human flourishing. (and yes, this time they are less murderous than previously, though it is fairly low bar given Holodomor death toll)
What did they do?
What I remember from Mariupol was the Azov battalion taking civilian hostages underground into the metallurgy factory complex, much like what is claimed Hamas did, and the Russians waiting for them to come out or release the hostages.
Imo Russia has been far less destructive with Ukraine than the US with Iraq, or even previous wars in the area.
Also, "is not actively attempting to genocide the natives." is passed also by EU.
Encouraging invasion by millions of foreigners + discouraging native reproduction and sovereignty, branding right-wing nativist movements as 'nazi 2.0' etc counts as attempt at destroying European nations to me.
Perhaps the European population is broadly consenting to this destruction, and the intent is so diffuse and generalized that the finger cannot be pointed at any given group of people for this attempt, but the results are the same.
What happened to the former countries that joined the EU should be a cautionary tale, not something a supposedly nationalist country should emulate.
Have you seen photos of Mariupol before Russian army arrived and after Ruski Mir?
(also, last time I checked it was less "hostages" and more "people hiding from rampaging russian army" - for typical and quite good reasons)
or even previous wars in the area.
They attack civilians less than USSR and Nazi Germany. Congrats, if they would get worse than this it would be pretty amazing.
Still, to get "less destructive than EU" level they are quite far away. And fortunately for Poland it is not Russia vs Nazi Germany, so Russia would improve a lot to be attractive.
attempt at destroying European nations to me.
Your goalposts are moving quite fast. And yes, it is still less destructive (in both deliberate destruction and stupid self-destruction) than Russian epic efforts. Though that bar is so low that I am not happy about EU either. Being better than Russia is not enough.
(also, last time I checked it was less "hostages" and more "people hiding from rampaging russian army" - for typical and quite good reasons)
Checked what?
I know some people expatriated from Donbass who are considering moving back now that it's been made part of Russia, they don't seem to think it's so bad there.
They attack civilians less than USSR and Nazi Germany.
No I was referring to the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia and the Russian destruction of Chechnya.
it is still less destructive (in both deliberate destruction and stupid self-destruction) than Russian epic efforts.
White children are in minority in many Western cities, governments are either indifferent to Christianity or hostile, migrants are still coming. Give it 20 years and nobody will think of as Western Europe as fair-skinned and Christian.
You seemed concerned with the Ukrainian culture getting destroyed, but what is the Ukrainian culture?
Does it not include Christianity?
Violent Revolution, so that Eastern Europe can do what? Bend over for Moscow? Balkanize into Rand-approved fiefdoms from sea to sea? You may not like the “right-wing” option, but I find it a more credible path to supporting your values than throwing your nation out the window.
Balkanize into Rand-approved fiefdoms from sea to sea?
Where do you think the verb 'balkanize' even come from?
but I find it a more credible path to supporting your values than throwing your nation out the window.
Good luck teaching half a billion Africans your 'values'.
There is no European civilization without Europeans.
This is how 'right-wing' voting works.
current immigration level 100K/year
right-wing talking head: "The left wants to take in 500K immigrants per year, but we listen to the voters and will reduce immigration!"
immigration level becomes 200K/year
Rinse and repeat
The people who control the media are the ones deciding what voters care about, and they will never give a platform to somebody further right than left-wingers 5 years ago.
I know exactly where “Balkanize” came from. I picked that to point out that a violent revolution in EE won’t create an ethnostate paradise. It’ll create a shithole, full of land mines and, if you’re lucky, NATO peacekeepers.
In eastern Congo, however, the problem is practically an epidemic. When a truce was declared in the war there in 2003, so many cases began showing up that Western medical experts at first called it impossible—especially when local doctors declared that most of the fistulas they were seeing were the consequence of rapes. "No one wanted to believe it at first," says Lyn Lusi, manager of the HEAL Africa hospital (formerly called the Docs Hospital) in the eastern Congo city of Goma. "When our doctors first published their results, in 2003, this was unheard of."
Is there something inconsistent about being right-wing and supporting fighting Russia? You would simply be one link in potentially numerous generations of right-wing local nationalists who have supported the same.
On the other hand, if you're talking about some kind of authoritarianism/freedom axis, surely Europe is becoming more right-wing one migrant at a time.
Sharia law soon brothers. Now that's trad.
That is 2011. Any more recent data? Also "no muslims" is only one axis, on many others like "people wishing to change something are not murdered on orders of Moscow/Washington" or ">100 000 dead due to catastrophic economy mismanagement, maybe deliberate murder via economy sabotage" Russia is less rosy.
And "due to USSR we are noticeably poorer so migrants want to migrate elsewhere" is hardly a great incentive to be occupied by Russia again.
USSR's control of Germany ended 20 years prior, I don't see why newer data would change anything. I don't expect East Germany to have diversified faster than West Germany in the last decade, and if it did, I'd expect a good explanation to blame it on the USSR, considering that the very agents responsible for mass immigration to Europe to this day are still waging war against the ghost of the USSR.
">100 000 dead due to catastrophic economy mismanagement, maybe deliberate murder via economy sabotage" Russia is less rosy.
People die all the time. Nations die when globalists simultaneously import millions of foreigners and discourage breeding among the natives.
And "due to USSR we are noticeably poorer so migrants want to migrate elsewhere" is hardly a great incentive to be occupied by Russia again.
European civilization was explicitly defined by its Christianity according to which poverty is a virtue and excessive wealth a sin, so it's a question of point-of-view.
If you want to be more 'trad' and revert to older versions of culture and civilization then this might conflict with it, and higher levels of islamic immigration might actually further your values.
Why do you think the entire European right (apart from some very fringe groups) resisted USSR that strongly for its entire existence, then?
From an actual ethnonationalist point of view, people in Estonia, Latvia and to a lesser extent Lithuania certainly remember that rule by USSR meant a real, existing risk of their nationalities really, genuinely becoming minorities in their titular homelands, as temporarily already happened to the Kazakhs.
Yes, certainly, but the point I was answering to specifically referred to the right, and made the strange and ahistorical claim that being opposed to Russia would somehow by itself rended these parties as "not right-wing".
It's hard to explain.
The traditionalist right pretty much died out when the USSR and Americans allied to crush them.
Then whatever fringe was left was crushed by a combination of consumerism (industrial society), chemical warfare (contraception), and massive amount of propaganda.
Anyone with eyes can see that Western (American) media is a much bigger threat to native cultures than anything coming out of Russia or China.
Perhaps because the West is the most effective vehicle of the Industrial Revolution.
A less effective ruler can be a good thing, if the ruler's objectives are opposite to the survival of your people.
From an actual ethnonationalist point of view, people in Estonia, Latvia and to a lesser extent Lithuania certainly remember that rule by USSR meant a real, existing risk of their nationalities really, genuinely becoming minorities in their titular homelands
Yes or they could have been Belgians.
I doubt Belgians will exist as an ethnic group in the next 50 years, after so charitably hosting the EU parasite.
Meanwhile Poland is just as white as the Nazi ethnic cleansing left it.
Anyone with eyes can see that Western (American) media is a much bigger threat to native cultures than anything coming out of Russia or China.
That is quite wild claim, given outright attempts to destroy cultures run by both (see also "Ukrainians and Ukraine are fake and never really existed"). Chinese managed to run quite hard destruction attempt on themself and are busy speed running deliberately exploding population pyramid (recently they tried to reverse it, with poor results).
Still less terrible population pyramid than Poland, but we at least have not tried to achieve it deliberately.
And yes, Russia is corrupt and ineffective - but not so much to make them harmless. And Russification was repeatedly attempted by them with various degrees of success.
I doubt Belgians will exist as an ethnic group in the next 50 years
I am not sure whether they ever existed as ethnic group :)
Meanwhile Poland is just as white as the Nazi ethnic cleansing left it.
And that is both false and misleading (Nazis in Poland had very limited opportunity to murder non-white people on account of Poland having even less of them than nowadays - they murdered millions of white people). Hmm, now I wonder how many were murdered due to this.
That is quite wild claim, given outright attempts to destroy cultures run by both (see also "Ukrainians and Ukraine are fake and never really existed").
Ukrainian culture exists in the sense that Russian culture exists.
Are they meaningfully distinctive?
Probably about as distinctive as the cultures of two different islands of Japan, or two provinces of China.
What is more destructive to Ukrainian culture, having a few hundred thousands neighbors who share 98% of their culture move in and boss you around a little bit or importing millions of literal polygamous hunter-gatherers or islamic nomads + imposing pro-LGBT education/laws?
Additionally if Ukraine were to join the EU and the Schengen area, which seems to be one of the goals of the current regime, there would be 0 barrier to immigration of Russian-speaking EU citizens.
As far as I can tell about Ukrainian culture, Zelensky is at least as removed from it as the average Muscovite, and he was still speaking Russian in his official speeches a couple years before the war.
Moreover, shamelessly begging for international support does not seem to be part of the 'proud Ukrainian nationalist' ethos, but maybe I'm confused?
I am not sure whether they ever existed as ethnic group :)
Well certainly the Dutch and Belgians were slightly different from the Brits, Germans and French. Now it's all different shades of brown.
And that is both false and misleading (Nazis in Poland had very limited opportunity to murder non-white people on account of Poland having even less of them than nowadays - they murdered millions of white people).
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Notes -
2.1 million is a lot of refugees. How does that measure up to previous crises, like Syria, etc? Is it effectively the same but all at once or a much bigger number?
Poland alone had more Ukrainian refugees, with about one million still staying right now (depending on how you count you will get different numbers).
Total count of Ukrainian refugees was about 5-6 million, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_refugee_crisis_(2022%E2%80%93present)
Obviously, refugee count is far from only impact. Palestinians are not going to Europe. Unless someone plays 7D chess and really wants right across Europe to win elections.
Voting "right-wing" literally does not do anything in Western Europe. In Eastern-Europe "right-wing" voters still overwhelmingly support fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO while simultaneously asking EU politely to stop sending migrants. The only way out of this endless All-Star loop Europe is stuck in is through violent revolution and rejection of democratic institutions.
Why the heck they would prefer to live under Russia? Even if you would go with "USA and Russia are equally bad"[1] then still playing empire far away against close empire makes perfect sense.
Also, if you think that "fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO" is happening you should discuss it with other contrarians who thing that USA supporting Ukraine is mistaken and should be isolating rather than helping Eastern Europe.
[1] they are not, unless you put high value on stuff like rampant homosexual rape in military
Even if true, then importing Palestinians is still going to boost them.
Russia is not actively attempting to genocide the natives.
USA should not be supporting the Ukraine government sending the average Ukrainian man who has not fled the country yet to his death.
Not sure what you mean by isolating. Foreign policy does not have to be a 2-position switch between Cuba-style blockade and CIA-led 'color revolution'. Perhaps the US could consider trading without meddling politically?
Boost what? It's certainly going to make european governments more authoritarian, but just because they police the migrants harder does not mean that they will stop oppressing the natives. If anything, the post-9/11 policies enacted by the West have mostly been used to send right-wingers to jail over facebook posts or mostly peaceful election results protests.
No matter how you call it: what they did in Mariupol, Nova Kakhovka, Bucha, Odessa and so on is not conductive to human flourishing. (and yes, this time they are less murderous than previously, though it is fairly low bar given Holodomor death toll)
Also, "is not actively attempting to genocide the natives." is passed also by EU. And basically everyone else. Clearing "they do not want murder your nation" bar is not sufficient to answer "Why the heck they would prefer to live under Russia?".
And after https://www.themotte.org/post/705/israelgaza-megathread-1/148670?context=8#context I will limit myself to commenting that I am hopeful that your beloved Russia will fall on its face with their latest imperialism attempt and will stop such activity for few decades.
What did they do?
What I remember from Mariupol was the Azov battalion taking civilian hostages underground into the metallurgy factory complex, much like what is claimed Hamas did, and the Russians waiting for them to come out or release the hostages.
Imo Russia has been far less destructive with Ukraine than the US with Iraq, or even previous wars in the area.
Encouraging invasion by millions of foreigners + discouraging native reproduction and sovereignty, branding right-wing nativist movements as 'nazi 2.0' etc counts as attempt at destroying European nations to me.
Perhaps the European population is broadly consenting to this destruction, and the intent is so diffuse and generalized that the finger cannot be pointed at any given group of people for this attempt, but the results are the same. What happened to the former countries that joined the EU should be a cautionary tale, not something a supposedly nationalist country should emulate.
Have you seen photos of Mariupol before Russian army arrived and after Ruski Mir?
(also, last time I checked it was less "hostages" and more "people hiding from rampaging russian army" - for typical and quite good reasons)
They attack civilians less than USSR and Nazi Germany. Congrats, if they would get worse than this it would be pretty amazing.
Still, to get "less destructive than EU" level they are quite far away. And fortunately for Poland it is not Russia vs Nazi Germany, so Russia would improve a lot to be attractive.
Your goalposts are moving quite fast. And yes, it is still less destructive (in both deliberate destruction and stupid self-destruction) than Russian epic efforts. Though that bar is so low that I am not happy about EU either. Being better than Russia is not enough.
Checked what? I know some people expatriated from Donbass who are considering moving back now that it's been made part of Russia, they don't seem to think it's so bad there.
No I was referring to the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia and the Russian destruction of Chechnya.
White children are in minority in many Western cities, governments are either indifferent to Christianity or hostile, migrants are still coming. Give it 20 years and nobody will think of as Western Europe as fair-skinned and Christian.
You seemed concerned with the Ukrainian culture getting destroyed, but what is the Ukrainian culture? Does it not include Christianity?
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Violent Revolution, so that Eastern Europe can do what? Bend over for Moscow? Balkanize into Rand-approved fiefdoms from sea to sea? You may not like the “right-wing” option, but I find it a more credible path to supporting your values than throwing your nation out the window.
Where do you think the verb 'balkanize' even come from?
Good luck teaching half a billion Africans your 'values'. There is no European civilization without Europeans.
This is how 'right-wing' voting works.
Rinse and repeat The people who control the media are the ones deciding what voters care about, and they will never give a platform to somebody further right than left-wingers 5 years ago.
I know exactly where “Balkanize” came from. I picked that to point out that a violent revolution in EE won’t create an ethnostate paradise. It’ll create a shithole, full of land mines and, if you’re lucky, NATO peacekeepers.
Balkan shitholes still look much better than what is probably in store for the future of Western Europe.
More references to look up: necklacing;
documentary Africa Addio
Are you even aware with current state of Balkan countries?
I am 100% sure it would not improve by adding 100 millions Congoleses.
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Is there something inconsistent about being right-wing and supporting fighting Russia? You would simply be one link in potentially numerous generations of right-wing local nationalists who have supported the same.
not at all (you can also be right-wing and support Russia)
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From an ethno-nationalist point of view, rule by USSR had much better consequences than rule by EU/NATO-aligned globalists. See this convenient experiment in Germany.
On the other hand, if you're talking about some kind of authoritarianism/freedom axis, surely Europe is becoming more right-wing one migrant at a time. Sharia law soon brothers. Now that's trad.
That is 2011. Any more recent data? Also "no muslims" is only one axis, on many others like "people wishing to change something are not murdered on orders of Moscow/Washington" or ">100 000 dead due to catastrophic economy mismanagement, maybe deliberate murder via economy sabotage" Russia is less rosy.
And "due to USSR we are noticeably poorer so migrants want to migrate elsewhere" is hardly a great incentive to be occupied by Russia again.
USSR's control of Germany ended 20 years prior, I don't see why newer data would change anything. I don't expect East Germany to have diversified faster than West Germany in the last decade, and if it did, I'd expect a good explanation to blame it on the USSR, considering that the very agents responsible for mass immigration to Europe to this day are still waging war against the ghost of the USSR.
People die all the time. Nations die when globalists simultaneously import millions of foreigners and discourage breeding among the natives.
European civilization was explicitly defined by its Christianity according to which poverty is a virtue and excessive wealth a sin, so it's a question of point-of-view. If you want to be more 'trad' and revert to older versions of culture and civilization then this might conflict with it, and higher levels of islamic immigration might actually further your values.
Take a look at Russian demographics, it does not look stellar either.
Starvation and drowning everything in rampant alcoholism is not highly prized by Christianity.
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Why do you think the entire European right (apart from some very fringe groups) resisted USSR that strongly for its entire existence, then?
From an actual ethnonationalist point of view, people in Estonia, Latvia and to a lesser extent Lithuania certainly remember that rule by USSR meant a real, existing risk of their nationalities really, genuinely becoming minorities in their titular homelands, as temporarily already happened to the Kazakhs.
Note that in areas closer to Russia also very large part of left opposed USSR.
Yes, certainly, but the point I was answering to specifically referred to the right, and made the strange and ahistorical claim that being opposed to Russia would somehow by itself rended these parties as "not right-wing".
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It's hard to explain. The traditionalist right pretty much died out when the USSR and Americans allied to crush them. Then whatever fringe was left was crushed by a combination of consumerism (industrial society), chemical warfare (contraception), and massive amount of propaganda. Anyone with eyes can see that Western (American) media is a much bigger threat to native cultures than anything coming out of Russia or China. Perhaps because the West is the most effective vehicle of the Industrial Revolution. A less effective ruler can be a good thing, if the ruler's objectives are opposite to the survival of your people.
Yes or they could have been Belgians. I doubt Belgians will exist as an ethnic group in the next 50 years, after so charitably hosting the EU parasite. Meanwhile Poland is just as white as the Nazi ethnic cleansing left it.
That is quite wild claim, given outright attempts to destroy cultures run by both (see also "Ukrainians and Ukraine are fake and never really existed"). Chinese managed to run quite hard destruction attempt on themself and are busy speed running deliberately exploding population pyramid (recently they tried to reverse it, with poor results).
Still less terrible population pyramid than Poland, but we at least have not tried to achieve it deliberately.
And yes, Russia is corrupt and ineffective - but not so much to make them harmless. And Russification was repeatedly attempted by them with various degrees of success.
I am not sure whether they ever existed as ethnic group :)
And that is both false and misleading (Nazis in Poland had very limited opportunity to murder non-white people on account of Poland having even less of them than nowadays - they murdered millions of white people). Hmm, now I wonder how many were murdered due to this.
Ukrainian culture exists in the sense that Russian culture exists. Are they meaningfully distinctive? Probably about as distinctive as the cultures of two different islands of Japan, or two provinces of China. What is more destructive to Ukrainian culture, having a few hundred thousands neighbors who share 98% of their culture move in and boss you around a little bit or importing millions of literal polygamous hunter-gatherers or islamic nomads + imposing pro-LGBT education/laws?
Additionally if Ukraine were to join the EU and the Schengen area, which seems to be one of the goals of the current regime, there would be 0 barrier to immigration of Russian-speaking EU citizens.
As far as I can tell about Ukrainian culture, Zelensky is at least as removed from it as the average Muscovite, and he was still speaking Russian in his official speeches a couple years before the war.
Moreover, shamelessly begging for international support does not seem to be part of the 'proud Ukrainian nationalist' ethos, but maybe I'm confused?
Well certainly the Dutch and Belgians were slightly different from the Brits, Germans and French. Now it's all different shades of brown.
Oh you're a holocaust denier?
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In the (by far) highest year of the migrant crisis so far, 2015, 1.1 million Syrian refugees supposedly arrived in Europe.
The total amount of displaced Syrians was much higher though. Over 5 million are still refugees abroad.
Most in Turkey though.
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