site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   29415 thread views

Israel-Gaza Megathread #1

This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.

20
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

No. This is borderline not being Catholic yourself especially how others are expressing it in the comments.

An absurd statement. I want my literal sisters, my literal mother and father, and some of my friends, who have fallen off of the faith, to remember that they are still baptized, confirmed catholics and should return to Church with me every Sunday when I invite them to mass with me.

I'm not describing diluting the faith. I'm advocating for a more traditional interpretation of it where people assign more importance and value to it.

I feel like I have to have back @sliders1234 on this one. If those who have left the faith choose to return I believe they should be welcomed with open arms, but in the meantime...

he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made
And crowns for convoy put into his purse:
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.

  • Henry V, Act IV Scene III

Okay I think I understand what you guys are saying, and I think we're getting in a bit of a semantics trap here.

I'm saying: a person who was raised catholic, and who went through confirmation, should still consider themselves associated with The Church. When they hopefully decide to go back to church, it shouldn't be a question of which church they go to, since they are...Catholic.

Contrast this with an atheist, or somebody finding faith for the first time. Catholicism might be an option for them, but wouldn't be the default since they have no connection to Catholicism.

It's the difference between returning to something, and finding something for the first time.

I'm not saying that people who aren't going to church and aren't living a Catholic lifestyle should still refer to themselves as "Catholics". I think I'm actually saying the opposite of that. I can see where the confusion came from, though, since this is how many Jews approach their religion.

When I say be more like the Jews, it's probably based on a misunderstanding. What I actually mean is:

  • Send your kids to Catholic school

  • Marry other Catholics

  • Be friends with other Catholics

  • Make Catholicism a central part of your life (Many devout Catholics I know are extremely charitable, for instance)

  • Be assertively Catholic. Be unapologetically anti abortion, anti-degeneracy etc. Be proud of the makeup of the supreme court. Pray before meals, etc.

Maybe this is based on my interactions with Jewish friends, who all seem to be a lot more devout and dedicated to their religion than a lot of my Catholic friends. I don't think I have ever had a person reveal to me that they are Jewish, and have it be a surprise since they are all somewhat vocal about it. I have had the opposite reaction from friends who tell me that they're Catholic, and it be a surprise to me because they don't...seem very Catholic.

Consider Ben Shapiro: what does him being Jewish have to do with his talk show or whatever? But is there any question about his religious affiliation?

To my comment about Latin: the fact that many jews speak Hebrew creates a sense of belonging and camaraderie that I wish existed with Catholics. I hear my Jewish friends rattle stuff off in Hebrew all the time (although it's mostly references to practices, or holidays) - I think that being a Jew and having a language that unites you with other Jews probably does a lot to create a sense of cohesion, and I suspect also keeps people in the faith (not just the language, but all of the things like that).

So again I'm not saying to water the faith down and just let anybody say they're Catholic without really having that mean anything. I'm saying the opposite of that: make saying "I'm Catholic" really mean something.

I think that this stuff will make it harder to leave The Church, and easier to return if you do, since it is more of a central part of your identity than just something you do every Sunday for an hour.

What would be nice is if there was a religion that was more or less born and adapted to a modern, industrial context in which germ theory was a thing and there was essentially no threat of literally starving to death.

I can't speak for @sliders1234, but for my part...

I think I'm actually saying the opposite of that. I can see where the confusion came from, though, since this is how many Jews approach their religion.

...clears a lot up because, yes, the latter part is what I thought you ment and at the risk of proffering aid and comfort to the enemy by agreeing with our local neo-nazis I think this is an instance where the claim that there is a cabal of Jewish intellectuals trying to undermine the west is actually true. The idea that religious/ethnic identity is a matter of blood rather than one of cultural practice/affiliation is a distinctively Jewish one. Even the Jihadis for all their barbarism are welcoming of converts and on occasion respectful towards those they view as useful allies/worthy opponents.

The idea that religious/ethnic identity is a matter of blood rather than one of cultural practice/affiliation is a distinctively Jewish one. Even the Jihadis for all their barbarism are welcoming of converts and on occasion respectful towards those they view as useful allies/worthy opponents.

Is this really the dominant idea among Jews nowadays? I'm sure someone can find a rabbi somewhere who endorses this or something, but I've never had the impression people actually reject converts. 17% of Jews in America were raised in another religion, Israel is already diverse and anyone from the rest of the world can get citizenship by converting, regardless of ethnic origin.

I think it’s changed somewhat recently. They certainly do not have missionaries and recruiters. My guess is the vast majority of the 17% are related to marriage which is a part of Jews secularizing but parents etc still expecting a Jewish wife. Matches up well with 35% of Jewish relationships being with non-Jews. I do think with the modern internet some people have learned more about Judaism and decided to convert. I don’t think they turn down converts but from what I know they don’t make it easy and you have to heavily pursue it.

That's makes sense, people marrying in from different ethnicities and religions and converting is still pretty different from a blood and soil religion. Aside from a period of study (that Catholicism requires as well), the things that make converting to judaism challenging afaik are no harder than what people born as Jews go through, ie Bar Mitzvahs, I could be wrong though.

Have you ever heard of Jewish missionary? Maybe it’s no harder than Catholicism (Sex and the City did do an episode on Charlotte trying to convert to marry Jew) but there is still a difference between encouraging and discouraging. Maybe it’s different the last 10 years.

I believe Antonio GarcĂ­a Martinez converted in the last few years.

Idk, I'm not sure whether or not you do a lot of proslytezing is more important than the factual claim of whether you're willing to accept converts from outside of your ethnic group. The sect of Christianity I was raised in didn't have missionaries but was still welcoming of people from wherever.

I guess I think the goal of a Catholic is to live as how Christ lived (I’ve failed and am not in communion with the church presently).

Of course we all will fail at that. The sacraments when we try to accomplish that in good faith are there to give us forgiveness. And to believe that Jesus Christ the son God came to this earth to experience our experience and die for our sins to give us a path.

A more traditional interpretation of the faith would be the apostles and the saints. You don’t really get to have preferences for friends and family though it’s very human. The mission is to care for all the same and bring all into the faith. It’s one reason why Priest don’t have family’s so they don’t have biases versus caring for the whole community. Now not all are called to be Priest and Saints and you probably do have some special caring for family.

But using Jews specifically as an example Catholicism is not an ethnic community. We aren’t a chosen people. It gets a little dangerous to look at how Jews a religion by birth and apply their way of doing things to a universal church. Jews are in someways a blood cult. Catholics are not.

You've completely lost me here. I think Catholics should learn latin and should consider their faith a central part of their life and their family's life.

Anything else you're reading here you're misunderstanding.

And I’m saying that’s not the message of Catholicism or Christianity. Other than consider faith a central part of their life. That’s emphasizing tradition and well not the core messages of Christianity.

An emphasis on Latin especially. While that’s can be a fun tradition and a part it’s also exclusionary and Catholicism is a universal church for all which implies most would need their mother tongue. It’s the message that matters not the language.

Are you trying to tell me that Catholics do not have an emphasis on tradition? And that an interest or respect for tradition is somehow anti-Catholic?

Could you expand on that?

The faith is the gospel and the sacraments.

Traditions are a cultural aspect of it but not the core.

The faith is the gospel and the sacraments.

Traditions are a cultural aspect of it but not the core.

The Orthodox Jews would also say that Jewishness is about following the law, but the secular Jews disagree and keep proudly calling themselves Jewish while munching on pork and never visiting a synagogue.

I think that’s what I’m getting at. He wants the civilization that grew up around the church but doesn’t mention the actual church.

I think that’s what I’m getting at. He wants the civilization that grew up around the church but doesn’t mention the actual church.

This ship sailed long ago, civilization that "grew up around the church", civilization based on feudalism, "noble blood" and "divine right" is as dead as Egypt of Pharaohs. Love it or hate it, but it is not coming back.

Do you mean tradition or Tradition? Actual meaningful difference for this context.

I don't know what you mean by this question.

In the Catholic context there is Tradition and then there is tradition.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats