naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
It really is odd. I’m not juvenile enough to be shocked that shit happens during war and young military age men do shitty things. The difference is most participants know what they are doing isn’t permissible so they don’t broadcast it to the world. Take for instance abu ghraib. While the soldiers had bad opsec, they weren’t posting the pictures on fucking MySpace.
Also, lets take Russia: they are at least claiming to be not targeting civilians (though in traditional Russian style they blatantly lie that no civilians whatsoever were harmed when it is clearly false).
And they parade tanks and other materiel captured from enemy, not dead civilians.
You're operating from a mistaken assumption, that what they are doing isn't permissible. Hamas could surround fighters with a wall of infants and machine-gun Israelis from that position, and when one Israeli sniper shot a fighter and the bullet injured an infant, the headline in the New York Times would be "Israeli Commandos Shoot Innocent Palestinian Infant". Israel is held to a set of standards that sort of rhymes with international conventions but is in fact much stricter, while Palestinians are held to none at all.
I mean, sorta. The people who support Hamas hold them to no standard, because if they had standards, they wouldn't support Hamas.
The brutality and cynical tactics that Hamas uses do lead to them having lower support than they would if they were less sociopathic though. There's a lot of people who would totally be on board with a "Free Palestine" agenda if it didn't mean parading the mangled corpses of naked girls through the street.
The brutality and cynical tactics that Hamas uses do lead to them having lower support than they would if they were less sociopathic though.
That's the weird thing though: their cynical tactics used to be launching rockets from hospital rooftops and parading the inevitable Palestinian corpses, or having Palestinian kids shot for throwing stones, etc etc. The grift has always been provoking Israel to violence and posing as an underdog.
But this, parading enemy civilian corpses around, is a diametrically opposite thing. It's something you do when you have several thousands of tanks ready to roll over the enemy capital, you expect to win, and you want to demoralize the enemy to win easier.
So I don't know, either Hamas expects Iran to nuke Israel, or the old guard that understood the nature of the grift all retired or something and the new leadership got terminally high on their own supply.
So I don't know, either Hamas expects Iran to nuke Israel
Yeah they did make a statement calling on the Arab countries to join the fight and so forth. So maybe the plan was something like 1.Pierce the illusion of Israeli invulnerability 2. Israel's neighbours see the weakness and pounce 3. Palestine is free from the river to the sea.
Or maybe it was just about stirring up enough heat that the Israel-Saudi normalisation doesn't happen. I dunno.
Or maybe it was just about stirring up enough heat that the Israel-Saudi normalisation doesn't happen. I dunno.
I don't see how this was supposed to work. A small terrorist act that causes Israel to respond disproportionally, all right. 400 paratroopers killing Israeli civilians? Again, this is a thing that you do when you have 5000 tanks ready to roll towards Tel Aviv and you want to show your potential Saudi allies that you mean business. They don't have a single tank. Saudis will be like, fuck those idiots.
The brutality and cynical tactics that Hamas uses do lead to them having lower support than they would if they were less sociopathic though. There's a lot of people who would totally be on board with a "Free Palestine" agenda if it didn't mean parading the mangled corpses of naked girls through the street.
What makes you think this?
Hamas does this because they live in tribal societies where parading the mangled corpses of your enemy's girls through the street is worthy of high praise. It doesn't lead to them having lower support; it leads to them having higher support.
Don't typical-mind. You would be horrified by such things. The people who Hamas needs to convince are overjoyed by it.
When I'm saying they would have higher support, I mean among westerners looking on from the outside. I'm not talking about internal Gazan politics, I'm talking about The Discourse and the international response. I think there's e.g. a lot of Germans who are a lot more sympathetic to "we want our land back" than to gunning down bus stops.
Well, at least it convinced EU to pause providing funding to Palestine (not entirely sure how well it was done but likely it effectively funded Hamas).
If Hamas didn't do what they did, they'd either be killed and replaced by someone who would (if they stopped killing Israelis) or killed by the Israelis (if they stopped using protected buildings and people as shields).
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Notes -
It really is odd. I’m not juvenile enough to be shocked that shit happens during war and young military age men do shitty things. The difference is most participants know what they are doing isn’t permissible so they don’t broadcast it to the world. Take for instance abu ghraib. While the soldiers had bad opsec, they weren’t posting the pictures on fucking MySpace.
Also, lets take Russia: they are at least claiming to be not targeting civilians (though in traditional Russian style they blatantly lie that no civilians whatsoever were harmed when it is clearly false).
And they parade tanks and other materiel captured from enemy, not dead civilians.
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You're operating from a mistaken assumption, that what they are doing isn't permissible. Hamas could surround fighters with a wall of infants and machine-gun Israelis from that position, and when one Israeli sniper shot a fighter and the bullet injured an infant, the headline in the New York Times would be "Israeli Commandos Shoot Innocent Palestinian Infant". Israel is held to a set of standards that sort of rhymes with international conventions but is in fact much stricter, while Palestinians are held to none at all.
I mean, sorta. The people who support Hamas hold them to no standard, because if they had standards, they wouldn't support Hamas.
The brutality and cynical tactics that Hamas uses do lead to them having lower support than they would if they were less sociopathic though. There's a lot of people who would totally be on board with a "Free Palestine" agenda if it didn't mean parading the mangled corpses of naked girls through the street.
That's the weird thing though: their cynical tactics used to be launching rockets from hospital rooftops and parading the inevitable Palestinian corpses, or having Palestinian kids shot for throwing stones, etc etc. The grift has always been provoking Israel to violence and posing as an underdog.
But this, parading enemy civilian corpses around, is a diametrically opposite thing. It's something you do when you have several thousands of tanks ready to roll over the enemy capital, you expect to win, and you want to demoralize the enemy to win easier.
So I don't know, either Hamas expects Iran to nuke Israel, or the old guard that understood the nature of the grift all retired or something and the new leadership got terminally high on their own supply.
Yeah they did make a statement calling on the Arab countries to join the fight and so forth. So maybe the plan was something like 1.Pierce the illusion of Israeli invulnerability 2. Israel's neighbours see the weakness and pounce 3. Palestine is free from the river to the sea.
Or maybe it was just about stirring up enough heat that the Israel-Saudi normalisation doesn't happen. I dunno.
I don't see how this was supposed to work. A small terrorist act that causes Israel to respond disproportionally, all right. 400 paratroopers killing Israeli civilians? Again, this is a thing that you do when you have 5000 tanks ready to roll towards Tel Aviv and you want to show your potential Saudi allies that you mean business. They don't have a single tank. Saudis will be like, fuck those idiots.
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What makes you think this?
Hamas does this because they live in tribal societies where parading the mangled corpses of your enemy's girls through the street is worthy of high praise. It doesn't lead to them having lower support; it leads to them having higher support.
Don't typical-mind. You would be horrified by such things. The people who Hamas needs to convince are overjoyed by it.
When I'm saying they would have higher support, I mean among westerners looking on from the outside. I'm not talking about internal Gazan politics, I'm talking about The Discourse and the international response. I think there's e.g. a lot of Germans who are a lot more sympathetic to "we want our land back" than to gunning down bus stops.
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Well, at least it convinced EU to pause providing funding to Palestine (not entirely sure how well it was done but likely it effectively funded Hamas).
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If Hamas didn't do what they did, they'd either be killed and replaced by someone who would (if they stopped killing Israelis) or killed by the Israelis (if they stopped using protected buildings and people as shields).
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