site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 2, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Hmm, I dunno. That whole r/antiwork debacle was an excellent case study in the wide gulf between how radical leftists present themselves on the internet vs. how they look and act in meatspace. Whenever you see those compilations of Antifa mugshots, they generally look like weird, off-putting crusty people who smoke too much weed and bathe infrequently.

I think it comes back to the point I made here. As a rule, high-status people (attractive, charming, neurotypical, able to hold down a steady job, high income etc.) are not pursuing radical changes to the society in which they live, as they know full well they don't stand to gain as a result of these changes. The only people who can reliably be assumed to support radically changing society from the ground up are the losers in the current system. Go to any meeting of far-right or far-left people and you will be disproportionately likely to encounter people who are physically unattractive, lacking in social graces, working in unskilled jobs etc..

No question that far-right 4chan posters ranting about da joos aren't getting invited to many cool parties - but neither is Doreen, the founder of /r/antiwork, and no one is more acutely aware of that fact than they are.

part of the reason people look like losers in mugshots is because they are in an uncomfortable setting with bad lighting and anxious, having just been arrested . It's not like they can take many photos under ideal conditions , relaxed, and then use the best photo.

maybe this would have been true 15 years ago, but many of the people who are being de-platformed , exiled, or excluded are not always losers anymore. I think a fair number of successful, rich leftists in tech, NGOs, politics, law actually do seek radical change at a societal level

part of the reason people look like losers in mugshots is because they are in an uncomfortable setting with bad lighting and anxious, having just been arrested

I don't mean they look like losers because they're in an uncomfortable setting with bad lighting and they're anxious. I mean they look like a specific category of loser: over-/under-weight, loads of horrible facial piercings, hair in natty dreadlocks and/or dyed a shade that doesn't exist in nature, face tattoos, bad teeth.