site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   26927 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 25, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The comment in no way indicated that Democrats were promising positions to black women for illegitimate reasons. Only that they were doing so routinely.

I think we are going to have to disagree on that one.

If you're going to assert that Kamala Harris is as conventionally qualified as Mike Pence, Joe Biden, Dick Cheney, Al Gore

Well, Joe Biden and Mike Pence [edit: I meant Dick Cheney] might be the most conventionally qualified VPs ever, so they do not represent the norm. As for Al Gore, he served 8 years in the House and 7 in the Senate. No executive experience at all. Kamala Harris was a DA for 7 years and then Attorney General of the most populous state in the country for 6, and then Senator for 5 years. Then there is Dan Quayle (4 years in House, 8 years in the Senate). Then there are unsuccessful nominees like Sarah Palin and John Edwards (1 term in the Senate).

If you'd like to put Ketanji '379 days on the Court of Appeals' Brown Jackson's record up against the conventional qualifications of, oh I don't know, having an established judicial record for the senate to be able to examine before confirmation, then feel free to do so

Jackson has all the normal educational qualifications, clerked for the Supreme Court, served as the vice chair of the US Sentencing Commission, and was a US District Court judge for several years (which indeed created a judicial record for the Senate to examine). And note that commentators, including Justice Scalia, have long bemoaned the fact that few Supreme Court justices have experience as trial judges. In contrast, John Roberts had all of 13 months of experience as a judge before being appointed. Elena Kagan had no judicial experience. Clarence Thomas had a little more than a year. Sandra Day O'Connor had served five years as a judge at the county level and 1 1/2 years as a judge on an intermediate state appellate court.

You're (likely inadvertently) advocating to replace that system with a South Africa style quota.

No, I'm not. Because, you know, for 45 years, the Supreme Court distinguished between racial quotas and taking race into account. If they can understand that distinction, I am guessing you can, too.

Well, Joe Biden and Mike Pence might be the most conventionally qualified VPs ever, so they do not represent the norm.

Neither of them are even close to the "most" - HW Bush immediately comes to mind but there's probably an even better one

You said:

And, of course, a non-boo outgroup approach might consider that taking representation into account when appointing someone to a representative body does not seem to be unreasonable on its face.

I said:

Representation of their constituents political desires.

As in the thing the representative body is supposed to represent is the will of their constituents. It is absolutely unreasonable to pretend that your use of the word representation had anything to do with the stated purpose of a representative body. And your clever attempt to equate the two disparate concepts through wordplay is absolutely an advocation for representative bodies that look like the constituents they represent. Inadvertent or otherwise.

I find calling Pence or Biden as the most qualified ever pretty funny in the context where Adams, Jefferson, Burr, GWHB, George Clinton, Calhoun, LBJ we’re all VPs.

But to your point, let’s look back to see someone as unqualified as Kamala.

Let’s see. Mike Pence? More qualified. Joe Biden? More qualified. Dick Cheney? More qualified. Manbearpig? More qualified. Quayle? It’s close. GWHB? Not by a country mile. Mondale? More qualified. Rockefeller? More qualified. Ford? More qualified.

So amongst the last ten VP Kamala appears tied for last in terms of qualification.

Neither of them are even close to the "most"

My mistake. I meant to say Dick Chaney, rather than Mike Pence.

As in the thing the representative body is supposed to represent is the will of their constituents.

  1. Right. And someone who is African American is more likely to know the will of African Americans than someone who isn't.
  2. Moreover, representatives are also meant to represent the interests of their constituents, not just their will, which realistically does not exist re a lot of legislation. A diverse (not just racially but in many ways) body is more likely to represent everyone (and to understand how govt action will affect everyone) than a less diverse one. That is why the #1 selling point fir Jackson was her work as a public defender. Most judges with criminal experience are ex-prosecutors.

And someone who is African American is more likely to know the will of African Americans than someone who isn't.

Not to derail this thread, but I think this statement is mostly false. It used to seem self-evident to me. More and more, though, I think class and occupation are much more relevant.

Two points as to why: a) People like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have done more to harm black people in the US than all the KKK members combined. b) Black people are not a monolith (especially wrt the trans/gay stuff) even if they have a lot of statistical and biological things in common across the entire race.

It seems to me that you would probably agree that "Someone who is White is more likely to know the will of White Americans than someone who isn't" is kind of a meaningless statement. To the extent that it's true, it's trivial.

I recognize that this is probably one of the deepest core progressive concepts, though, so I don't expect many on the left to be eager to abandon it. I just think it's false and around here we should note stuff like that.

I think class and occupation are much more relevant.

That is very possibly true. Some people have argued that apportionment should be more on those grounds and less on geography. That might be a great idea. However:

  1. "X is more relevant than Y" is not an argument that X is irrelevant.
  2. This seems to be a statement that some white people (eg a white auto worker) might know the will of working class African Americans better than some African American people (eg, an African American lawyer). Even if that is true, my statement was mere that an African American representative is more likely
  3. Just to be clear, you are endorsing the idea that representation of interest groups is indeed legitimate.

People like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have done more to harm black people in the US than all the KKK members combined.

  1. I am not sure why you are lumping Jesse Jackson with Al Sharpton, nor what that harm you imagine that to be, nor why you are choosing two guys who have never held political office. A better example would be the majority of the Congressional Black Caucus who voted for the 1994 Crime Bill, which some would argue has done more harm than good to the African American community. I am sure there are other bills that have not turned out well. Which leads me to ..
  2. I said that an African American is more likely to represent the will of African Americans. Not that every action by every African American politician is always going to turn out for the best. As Supreme Court justices have noted many times, ""The Constitution does not prohibit legislatures from enacting stupid laws." The majority of African Americans apparently supported the 1994 crime bill, according to sources cited here. And, where is your evidence that African Americans did not approve of what Jesse Jackson or even Al Sharpton did?

Black people are not a monolith

  1. Yes, obviously. If legitimate democratic representation required that those who are represented be a monolith, then all representative bodies would be illegitimate.
  2. More importantly, this is an argument in favor of Newsom's position: If no group is a monolith, including the People of the State of California, then it is even more important that representatives come from as diverse a background as possible, is it not?

It seems to me that you would probably agree that "Someone who is White is more likely to know the will of White Americans than someone who isn't" is kind of a meaningless statement. To the extent that it's true, it's trivial.

I don't know why it is either meaningless or trivial. It is not meaningless or trivial in Hawaii (21 percent non-Hispanic white) or in the by-far largest county in the country (25 percent non-Hispanic white)

Right. And someone who is African American is more likely to know the will of African Americans than someone who isn't.

This is what your interlocutors are summing up as "racism is good, actually". It is in direct contravention of the 90s colourblind ideal.

This is what your interlocutors are summing up as "racism is good, actually"

If that is the case, then my interlocutors need a more sophisticated understanding of what constitutes racism (rather than employing a definition that they almost certainly reject when used by their outgroup) as well as, more importantly, the issues surrounding representative democracy, including the very basic question of what makes it, and laws in general, legitimate. Do you know why the 26th Amendment passed when it did? Because drafting 18-20 yr olds to fight in an unpopular war when they had no right to vote for the legislators who were funding the war. And there is a reason that politicians from Bill Clinton to Nelson Rockefeller worked hard to get African American support for anti-crime laws. Because the perceived legitimacy of laws is important.

It is in direct contravention of the 90s colourblind ideal.

This is not correct. There were many intentionally "majority-minority" districts drawn at the time, particularly in the South. The South in the 90s, of course, was hardly a bastion of progressivism.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats