This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Sounds nice, pre-2014. Once one of your neighbors invades you, this isn't an option anymore. I know you know this. Help me understand what I'm missing.
You are missing the fact that it is immoral not to blame people who make crisis inevitable and it is short sighted to look at things only after things have escalated. So no, we need to blame those who made 2014 reality, both in Ukraine, Russia and in the USA.
After 2014, escalating to the current level has proven a worse option. Not shelling civilian areas for the Ukrainians. Or the USA not having their hands in this proxy war while their apologists lying their asses off. Or the Russians not supporting the rebels.
After the more hardcore invasion of 2022 there isn't really a good endpoint after the invasion. Ending the gruelling meat grinder sooner is better for an Ukrainian and Russian point of view. Unless you want Ukrainians to die so they can kill Russians for a long war, a peace agreement is not going to make people happy but is better than the alternative.
Of course if the Ukrainians could have won easier, it would be a better alternative for them not to go to the negotiating table. But that isn't the case.
The Ukrainians aren't the only ones needed for a peace agreement, but the better end point would have been a ceasefire peace. And crimea should had been the one area the Ukrainians should had been willing to make more direct concessions.
Actually it appeared that Ukraine and Russia were close to make an agreement but Britain torpedoed the agreement.
American imperialists both in terms of the USA itself and in terms of random indivudals who are American imperialists are not the only big power, and the only group of chauvinists willing to screw over others but they are not a good force for the world and they are very willing to destroy whole countries to expand their sphere of influence or harm rival powers like Russia while promoting propaganda about freedom and other nonsense. Meanwhile they try to put their own preffered people in charge who will go along with it. Maybe even advocate with greater zealotry for the American empire to remain engaged.
So I don't have a grand solution of the biggest powers bringing international justice because they are not lead by moral people with moral goals. I can still condemn the ruinous paths being followed. And pressure immoral actors who are hypocrites into behaving better, and condemning them for failing to live up to their propaganda. Obviously this forum has an over-abudance of American imperialists who cheerlead destruction and act with unparalled arrogance, having learned nothing from the Iraq, Libya, Syria debacles but even doubling down in acting as if they are moderates for doing so. A fraud.
Ideally we have a multi polar world where great powers use the concept of international justice to dissuade each other from warmongering would work better.
And while the world never had that, it could have it to a greater or lesser extend. The worst trajectory possible is American imperialists dreaming of world conquest and consolidating an authoritarian alliance that oppresses their vasals and is very hostile towards Russia/China and others while BRIC alliance also consolidates, and things heat up for a WW3.
For what is worth, I believe we need more gatekeeping against authoritarian american imperialists who deplatform and shame dissent while promoting both war outside and authoritarianism at home.
The escalatory potential of Ukraine/Russian war and how it helped lead Europe away from Russia and threatens to do so with China, is another facet to it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link