This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I have addressed this several times. Eg: If I am teaching a unit on religion, I have at least three options: 1) teach only about Christianity, the one true religion; 2) teach all the major religions, ie, those having more than X number of adherents; 3) teach every religion that has ever existed. You keep pretending that #2 does not exist. Once again, the mere fact that the perfect (#3) is impossible does not change the fact that #2 is better than #1.
Then apparently we agree.
I'm sorry but that makes zero sense.
It isnt about specific books, it is about specific viewpoints. Eg if you add White Fragility, then add one book on the other side, not every book.
While Huck Finn has sometimes been removed from curriculum, it has rarely been removed from school libraries. And again, even if it has, the fact that a rule cannot be perfectly enforced does not render the rule illegitimate.
Nope. You are. His proposal was to drop from the curriculum all topics upon which there was any disagreement.
I understand your view. It just makes no sense, unless you are using "does nothing" to mean "does not perfectly prevent." Which I suspect you are.
If you are going to engage in infantile ad hominem arguments, I am not interested in continuing the discussion.
No, I'm pointing out that by the criteria you provided, which is included creationism, geocentrism, and flat Earth as "major", #2 would effectively mean teaching lots and lots of theories, not just a few.
I wouldn't get carried away. Your proposal went from "absolutely intolerable" to "acceptable under specific conditions". I still think it adds pointless complexity, but I'm not going to start a knife fight over pointless complexity.
And as long as parents get to decide what that other book from the other side is, I consider your proposal toothless.
The argument wasn't even there to question the legitimacy of the rule, just to point out it does not prevent censorship.
Well, I notice I'm the one who provided quotes, and went through the entire conversation right up to his proposal, and you're the one just stubbornly repeating the same thing over and over, so I can't really take this seriously.
"Does not make sense" is par for the course. That's usually what disagreement looks like. "I understand", on the other hand is clearly false. If you understood what I was saying, you wouldn't keep hammering the idea that I believe the rule has to be perfect. You should also be able to come up with something that moves the conversation forward.
Apologies I shouldn't have made it personal. Allow me to rephrase: I believe lawyers will stand to benefit more from your proposal than the students.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link