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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   28479 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 11, 2023

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Yes, they were. Evolution, and all science (eg, heliocentrism v geocentrism) should be taught by giving students the major interpretations and the evidence, and let them figure out which is correct. They will come to the correct conclusion, because evidence, and they will learn the material better.

And what will you do if they don't come to the correct conclusion? Are you going to let them go out into the world believing the Earth is flat or is 6000 years old, or are you going to start tweaking the materials and classes until they reach the right conclusion? If you start tweaking them, are you going to restrain yourself only to the subject where we can reasonably believe that there even is a correct answer, and we know it, will subjects with more controversies and more unknowns also be subject to such tweaks?

???? And, they pursue that neutrality by removing books with which they disagree? You have been arguing against neutrality this entire time.

Why do you cut out the part of his comment where his reasoning is explained in detail, and then act like you don't understand where he's coming from?

And what will you do if they don't come to the correct conclusion? Are you going to let them go out into the world believing the Earth is flat or is 6000 years old, or are you going to start tweaking the materials and classes until they reach the right conclusion?

  1. No pedagogical strategy is perfect. No matter what, some students will walk out of class without learning the day's lesson. But they are more likely to learn the lesson, and more importantly, retain the lesson, if they are asked to assess the evidence therefor, rather than simply being told, "scientists say X is true."
  2. If an individual student looks at the evidence and comes to the conclusion that the earth is 6000 years old, then I would talk to him or her and try to determine how he or she came to that conclusion. Perhaps he or she did not understand some of the evidence, or perhaps the evidence was not as clearly presented as it might have been. So, am I going to start tweaking the materials? Yes, of course, because the Earth is NOT 6000 years old, and the evidence clearly shows that. So, yes, I might *improve *the materials by making them easier to understand, or what have you.

are you going to restrain yourself only to the subject where we can reasonably believe that there even is a correct answer, and we know it, will subjects with more controversies and more unknowns also be subject to such tweaks?

Since I have repeatedly argued the opposite, no.

Why do you cut out the part of his comment where his reasoning is explained in detail, and then act like you don't understand where he's coming from?

I didn't. Let's review: My initial proposal was to codify Pico, so that schools cannot remove books on the basis that they include ideas that the school disagrees with. it seems to me that one can hardly oppose that idea on the ground that "libraries are supposed to be neutral."

If an individual student looks at the evidence and comes to the conclusion that the earth is 6000 years old, then I would talk to him or her and try to determine how he or she came to that conclusion.

What if you're discussing geocentrism, and they're a smartass that compulsively reads internet contrarians, and ends up making a compelling case that all the laws of physics can be reformulated into a system where the Earth is at the (0,0,0) coordinate, he's good enough with Math that his presentation is compelling to the less advanced students, and since your background is law you're caught on the back foot, and the entire class ends up believing the Earth is the center of the universe?

Since I have repeatedly argued the opposite, no.

The issue I have here is that I heard that promise before. This was the framework I supposedly grew up on, and it fell apart the very moment this free access to ideas started leading to the "wrong" conclusions. Even if you have the integrity to keep your promise, I have zero trust that the education establishment does.

I didn't. Let's review:

You did. Yes, let's.

Here is the sentence you quoted:

They [libraries] are supposed to be neutral.

Here is the paragraph where the sentence comes from:

There is no right to having a school library at all. No parent has a valid interest in ensuring that their prefered books are featured in such a library. The library is for the interests people hold in common, not for the interests of individuals. Nor is satisfying such an interest possible; there are too many different people with too many different opinions. Neither school libraries nor schools themselves are platforms for the presentation of one's personal views. They are shared institutions. They are supposed to be neutral. The only practical approach to neutrality when it comes to a field as varied and charged as books is subtractive. If subtraction results in an empty library, that is an acceptable outcome.

He's saying you can't be neutral in the sense you're advocating for (either being "objective" or "teaching the controversy"), and that the only way to do so is holding on to the bits that everybody agrees on. In another part of the comment he says:

The curriculum is for everyone, so it should include the things everyone agrees it should include, and it should not include things whose inclusion is contentious. If such things must be considered, putting it to a majority vote is an entirely reasonable solution, if an imperfect one.

What is it that you don't understand about that, and why are you acting like he didn't explain it?

What if you're discussing geocentrism, and they're a smartass that compulsively reads internet contrarians, and ends up making a compelling case that all the laws of physics can be reformulated into a system where the Earth is at the (0,0,0) coordinate, he's good enough with Math that his presentation is compelling to the less advanced students, and since your background is law you're caught on the back foot, and the entire class ends up believing the Earth is the center of the universe?

I am not sure why I am teaching a science class if my background is in law, but if I were, then I would bring in a subject matter expert. And if that doesn't work, oh well. As I have said, there is no guarantee that students will learn a given lesson. All one can do is choose the best pedagogy, and as I said, the best pedagogy is to give students the evidence, not to tell them, "this is what scientist say is true." Finally, the problem of the smartass would be exactly the same in either case: Suppose I just give a lecture on "this is what scientists say," and the same smartass raises his hand and raises the same point?

Even if you have the integrity to keep your promise, I have zero trust that the education establishment does.

So, the better alternative is to tell the education establishment that it is OK to silence all opposing views? I do not understand why that would be the case. That is exactly what I pointed out previously: My former colleague, who argued that, because perfect objectivity is impossible, it is fine for him to simply give students his one-sided (and very left wing) views and ignore all opposing views.

He's saying you can't be neutral

Yet, he also says, "they are supposed to be neutral." So, which is it?

What is it that you don't understand about that,

  1. I am taking about library books, not curriculum. To repeat the previous Supreme Court quote: "Petitioners might well defend their claim of absolute discretion in matters of curriculum by reliance upon their duty to inculcate community values. But we think that petitioners' reliance upon that duty is misplaced where, as here, they attempt to extend their claim of absolute discretion beyond the compulsory environment of the classroom, into the school library and the regime of voluntary inquiry that there holds sway." (italics in original)
  2. As for " it should not include things whose inclusion is contentious," as I noted, that is impossible in the social sciences, because almost every interesting question is contentious: Why did England industrialize first? (some say it is because of profits from the slave trade; others say that is bullshit). What were the main causes of the American revolution? (some say the desire for individual liberty; others say the desire of local elites for greater economic opportunity, which was denied them under British mercantalist policies). Not to mention every important issue in economics. And the fact of the matter is that all states require students to analyze evidence related to contentious issues. Eg, Florida asks students to "Evaluate, take and defend objective, evidence-based positions on issues that cause the government to balance the interests of individuals with the public good" and repeatedly asks students to "evaluate" various issues, which means to "use information to make judgments."

I am not sure why I am teaching a science class if my background is in law

You were teaching the age of the Earth a second ago, so where's the problem? Anyway, I haven't noticed Math / Science teachers having that great understanding of Math / Science so that changes little.

Finally, the problem of the smartass would be exactly the same in either case: Suppose I just give a lecture on "this is what scientists say," and the same smartass raises his hand and raises the same point?

The difference is that I'm only exposed to the particular topics the smartass bothers to raise his hand about, and "shut up and eat your french fries" remains a valid response, while you've committed to going down every conceivable rabbit hole, even when no one is interested in it.

So, the better alternative is to tell the education establishment that it is OK to silence all opposing views? I do not understand why that would be the case.

Given that me, and FC have provided many arguments for how it would be the case, it would be a lot more productive if you explained which part you don't understand. Yes, it would be far superior for a local majority to be able to silence all opposing views. Generally, a direct, localized, transparent, democratic censorship process, in the hands of the parents is better than an indirect, opaque, non-democratic censorship process, that pretends to not even be a censorship process.

Yet, he also says, "they are supposed to be neutral." So, which is it?

I'm happy to rephrase it as many times as it takes, but it would probably be a good idea if you didn't ignore the part of the comment that directly addresses your questions. Again, according to FC there are 2 ways to understand neutrality:

  • The "objective" / "teach the controversy" one. This one is not possible.

  • The "subtractive" one, where you get rid of the things people disagree about, until only the ones everyone agrees on remain. There are some caveats to this that FC mentioned, but broadly speaking this one is possible.

I am taking about library books, not curriculum. To repeat the previous Supreme Court quote

It doesn't matter, and the Supreme Court is wrong. First, as already pointed out, there will always be curation, and it is better that the school library reflects community values than the librarian's values. Second, I don't even believe the person who wrote that. I'm sure they could come up with a post-hoc justification for not doing it, but they've made a fully-general case for stacking the school's book shelves full of porn.

As for " it should not include things whose inclusion is contentious," as I noted, that is impossible in the social sciences

It's perfectly possible to only teach theories everyone agrees are plausible, and if people can't agree on that, not teaching social science is a perfectly valid alternative. This is proven by the fact that even though the questions you mentioned are indeed interesting, many schools never come close to touching them.

You were teaching the age of the Earth a second ago, so where's the problem?

Dude, I was referring to a generic teacher, not me in general.

The difference is that I'm only exposed to the particular topics the smartass bothers to raise his hand about, and "shut up and eat your french fries" remains a valid response, while you've committed to going down every conceivable rabbit hole, even when no one is interested in it.

No, it is not a valid response to a serious question. As for non-serious questions, you obviously never taught. Everyone -- most importantly the other students -- know when a question is serious. And if it indeed serious but no one else is interested, then the obvious response is to tell the student that you will provide him with relevant resources outside class, and to then follow through. Just as one does when an advanced student asks a question that is beyond the ken or outside the interests of average students. There are certainly some difficult challenges when teaching, but dealing with this particular eventuality is not one of them.

The "subtractive" one, where you get rid of the things people disagree about, until only the ones everyone agrees on remain

I have addressed that. As I have noted, that doesn't work in economics nor in any of the social sciences. Many major topics do not have one correct answer.

First, as already pointed out, there will always be curation, and it is better that the school library reflects community values than the librarian's values.

That is irrelevant, since the question is not whose single viewpoint should be reflected, but whether the library should purge all but a single viewpoint.

Second, I don't even believe the person who wrote that. I'm sure they could come up with a post-hoc justification for not doing it, but they've made a fully-general case for stacking the school's book shelves full of porn.

And yet, despite that effectively being the law of the land for decades, school libraries are not full of porn. That is because:the issue is censorship of viewpoints, and porn is not a viewpoint. That is why one can make the sale of Hustler to minors illegal, but not the sale of Mein Kampf. Schools remove material with sexual content from libraries all the time. Prominent examples include The Bluest Eye, The Kite Runner, and Beloved.

not teaching social science is a perfectly valid alternative. This is proven by the fact that even though the questions you mentioned are indeed interesting, many schools never come close to touching them.

  1. If your solution to how best to teach a subject is not to teach it at all, you might want to rethink things.
  2. Really, many schools do not teach about why England industrialized first, nor what caused the American Revolution? Name them. Because unless you are referring to these schools, you are clearly just making that up.

No, it is not a valid response to a serious question. As for non-serious questions, you obviously never taught. Everyone -- most importantly the other students -- know when a question is serious.

"That's a great question! Sadly, we don't have time to cover it, come talk to me after class", or "I've got a great homework assignment for you!" would work perfectly fine.

But again, the important part is that with my approach I'd only have to deal with what comes up, by your description of your approach you'd have to teach every possible theory out there.

I have addressed that. As I have noted, that doesn't work in economics nor in any of the social sciences. Many major topics do not have one correct answer.

Whether or not you addressed it is irrelevant here. A moment ago you were acting like there was a contradiction in what he was saying, and then acting like your question wasn't answered.

That is irrelevant, since the question is not whose single viewpoint should be reflected, but whether the library should purge all but a single viewpoint.

It absolutely is relevant, and as far as I can tell, the only way to claim otherwise is to move the goal posts from "should the parents be allowed to purge all but a single viewpoint, if this is what they want to do" to "should libraries purge all but a single viewpoint". I have not claimed the latter, FC did not claim the latter, and the Supreme Court quote is not about the latter.

And yet, despite that effectively being the law of the land for decades, school libraries are not full of porn.

All that means is that the quote you gave is not the actual justification for the law as it is being enforced, so it was irrelevant to bring it up in the first place.

That is why one can make the sale of Hustler to minors illegal, but not the sale of Mein Kampf.

That brings up an interesting question: how many school libraries stock up on Mein Kampf?

If your solution to how best to teach a subject is not to teach it at all, you might want to rethink things.

Hardly. The amount of things not taught in school vastly exceeds that of things taught.

Really, many schools do not teach about why England industrialized first, nor what caused the American Revolution? Name them. Because unless you are referring to these schools, you are clearly just making that up.

I'm not about to dox the schools I went to, the way the industrialization of England is covered is that it happened, and the question of why is left for the curious, and you quickly move on to how it spread to the rest of Europe. And unless you live in a conquered nation like Germany, American history is hardly given any thought.

by your description of your approach you'd have to teach every possible theory out there.

No, as I said, the responsibility is merely to address the standard arguments on the issue. Again, perfection is impossible. But if the practical alternatives are 1) address the standard arguments on the issue; and 2) ignore all arguments and evidence other than that favored by the school, then option #1 is best.

It absolutely is relevant, and as far as I can tell, the only way to claim otherwise is to move the goal posts from "should the parents be allowed to purge all but a single viewpoint, if this is what they want to do" to "should libraries purge all but a single viewpoint". I have not claimed the latter, FC did not claim the latter, and the Supreme Court quote is not about the latter.

But that is precisely the issue that we are talking about, because that was my precise proposal: "How about a law to preserve the substance of the Pico plurality decision, which is probably no longer good law, to prevent red schools from removing ideas they don't like, and blue states from doing the same?" Those were the original goalposts. It is not relevant who the specific school-level decisionmaker is.

All that means is that the quote you gave is not the actual justification for the law as it is being enforced, so it was irrelevant to bring it up in the first place.

I have no idea what you mean. The quote distinguished between curriculum and libraries. They are different in various ways, and porn has nothing to do with the matter.

Hardly. The amount of things not taught in school vastly exceeds that of things taught.

Again, the point is that there are certain things that have to be taught, and in economics and the social sciences, there is no "correct" answer to any of them.

I'm not about to dox the schools I went to, the way the industrialization of England is covered is that it happened, and the question of why is left for the curious, and you quickly move on to how it spread to the rest of Europe. And unless you live in a conquered nation like Germany, American history is hardly given any thought.

Re industrialization, I think you are probably misremembering. It is a standard part of world history standards and textbooks. Re the American Revolution, we are talking about American law and American schools. I am sure there are similar topics covered in German schools (why did Weimar fail?).

No, as I said, the responsibility is merely to address the standard arguments on the issue.

This has "haggling over the price" written all over it. First, your central examples involved geocentrism, young earth creationism, and flat earth, if these theories meet your standard, then there's a tonne of others you'll have to let in as well, to the point it's not clear to me how any one argument or idea is kept out.

Again, perfection is impossible. But if the practical alternatives are 1) address the standard arguments on the issue; and 2) ignore all arguments and evidence other than that favored by the school, then option #1 is best.

This is your core value, or an axiomatic belief, or are there supporting arguments for it? Because I straight up disagree. There's not reason why 1) is necessarily better than 2). Faux-neutrality can be far worse that straight up removal of disfavored perspectives.

But that is precisely the issue that we are talking about, because that was my precise proposal: "How about a law to preserve the substance of the Pico plurality decision, which is probably no longer good law, to prevent red schools from removing ideas they don't like, and blue states from doing the same?" Those were the original goalposts.

Repealing Pico would not force schools to remove any ideas, so you have moved the goal posts.

It is not relevant who the specific school-level decisionmaker is.

Yes it is. Pico removes the ability of parents to curate books in the school libraries, while still allowing librarians to do it.

I have no idea what you mean. The quote distinguished between curriculum and libraries. They are different in various ways, and porn has nothing to do with the matter.

Sure it does. The quote is making the point that the school library is voluntary, so parents should not be allowed to curate it according to their values. The same logic would apply to porn, except like I predicted there's some post-hoc justification for one is ok to curate and the other not.

By the way, why skip my question about Mein Kampf? Do schools stock up on it or not? If not why has Pico failed to result in punishment schools for censoring it?

Again, the point is that there are certain things that have to be taught, and in economics and the social sciences, there is no "correct" answer to any of them.

I'm not the one arguing for the "objective" approach, I'm asking for coherence with the communities' values, so that's not an issue for me at all.

Re industrialization, I think you are probably misremembering. It is a standard part of world history standards and textbooks. Re the American Revolution, we are talking about American law and American schools. I am sure there are similar topics covered in German schools (why did Weimar fail?).

Sure, different parts of the world focus on different things, but that's sort of what I was driving at. You can still get a good education without learning every possible theory on everything (or even the main ones).

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No, as I said, the responsibility is merely to address the standard arguments on the issue.

Who picks the "standard arguments"? If that's a determination that can be made by a single teacher on the fly, why not just have the school actually standardize those arguments when they're designing the curriculum?

  1. address the standard arguments on the issue; and 2) ignore all arguments and evidence other than that favored by the school, then option #1 is best.

You phrase this as though the teacher is inherently doing a good job, and the school inherently doing a bad job, but why should we suppose that to be the case? It seems to me that a more straightforward phrasing would be: 1) ignore all arguments the teacher doesn't consider relevant, or 2), ignore all arguments the school doesn't consider relevant. Is that formulation less accurate in some way? If not, then why is the teacher's judgement assumed to be better than the school's?

"How about a law to preserve the substance of the Pico plurality decision, which is probably no longer good law, to prevent red schools from removing ideas they don't like, and blue states from doing the same?"

I don't think this would be a good idea. You apparently do think it would be a good idea. I tried to explain my objection, but apparently I was moving the goalposts. I apologize for that.

Why do you think preserving the substance of the Pico plurality decisions would be a good idea? What ends would doing so serve?

You state that it would prevent both Red and Blue states from removing books from their libraries, apparently as a positive outcome. Why do you think other people think that's a good thing, such that you'd mention it as an apparent selling point? Why is removing books from a library that the library's patrons don't want there a bad thing? If a book is unpopular and no one ever checks it out, is it reasonable to remove the book and replace it with something people do want, maybe even more copies of a book that's got a long waiting list?

Do you think there are books that should not be stocked in a public library? In a public school library? I raised issues of space before, but apparently that was goal-post moving, so leave that aside and look at pure content. Is it your contention that no content should ever be removed from a library over public objections to the content? If so, what is it about libraries that make them special in this way? If not, where would you estimate the limits to be?

Your framing seemed to present this as a balanced outcome; the rules are the same for both reds and blues. Is it your view that such balance is important? If so, are there books in blue libraries that the blues want removed as much as the books in red libraries that the Reds want removed? If so, can you give some examples? If not, would it be fair to say that while both are prohibited from doing something, in practice only one side derives benefit from being able to do so, and so only one loses that benefit through the restrictions?

Does it not matter to you at all how the books are selected in the first place? What is the purpose of such selection, in your view?

At this point, I would be satisfied to simply understand your thinking.

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