This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This runs into the problem that the people who are upholding the current state of affairs have a much larger megaphone than we do, and are using their disproportionate authority/power to deplatform those who would ever possibly challenge their position effectively.
So how can you 'appeal to their emotions' when it's your still, small voice vs. a massive screaming egregore of social media/pop culture that is pumped into womens' brains during all waking hours?
How exactly do you change someone's mind when every single social force is pulling them the opposite direction? (without directly attacking the source of the pull, see below)
We have guys like Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, Matt Walsh, Tucker Carlson I guess, and a plethora of manosphere types that are trying to 'walk through the issues' in a semi-rational matter.
They take on the institutions, and they get literally imprisoned, fined, fire, deplatformed, hacked, and otherwise shouted down by every single mainstream outlet at once.
That is the message that is coming across. "Rock the boat in any way that might actually change minds and we bring the full weight of our combined power down to crush you."
So you say "accept the truth, buck up, and work to change it."
Please, if you think there's a version of "changing it" that doesn't involve directly 'attacking' the institutional power wielded against those aforementioned men, and men in general, and dismantling, possibly via violence, the mechanisms they use to suppress alternate opinions, I'd love to hear it.
Its the whole problem of "why are conservatives/libertarians/populists complaining about censorship online when they should be trying to change hearts and minds and building parallel stuctures?"
Because this response ultimately becomes "Build your own internet/payment system/social media platform" and thus the work required to actually get any change done is a couple orders of magnitudes more than it would be if they were allowed to speak their piece unmolested.
It sounds like a kafkatrap when read uncharitably:
"If you're just complaining about it online and not doing something to change it, you clearly don't care about the issue enough to take action."
Then on the other hand, if you DO take action:
"Whoah buddy, you can't just directly go after the people and institutions that you think are responsible for suppressing male concerns and preventing any response to issues facing men, that makes you look like an overzealous psycho! Work to change people's minds first!"
Yes yes, work to change things.
But can we be, perhaps, REALISTIC about the amount of effort and strife that 'changing things' will entail, given how TPTB are quite happy to keep things the way they are?
Societal upheaval seems like an unavoidable outcome if things continue on their current trajectory (never a guarantee!) though.
More options
Context Copy link