site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 17, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I think the two world wars together were the end of an epoch. The way the west saw herself before, the way she thought about her artwork, her place in history, her religion, etc. changed pretty radically starting right around the world wars. In the before times, it was just simply taken for granted that the West was the civilized part of the world and that our ideas were simply better. Our religion (which was either Catholic or high Protestant) was true and to be spread, we were going to science the fuck out of pretty much everything and build utopia.

The thing is that following the two world wars, we gradually gave up on all of that. Our ideas like democracy, limited government, western philosophy, and the modern scientific method were all, one by one, discredited. We are quite literally the first culture I’m aware of that worries that our kids are too in love with their own civilization. That worries that our kids are reading too much of our own literature.

Now cards completely on the table, I’m more of a western chauvinist than anything. I look at what the west has achieved in the last 500 or so years, and I think it deserves very high praise. 500 years ago, we would be having this discussion via letters delivered by horse and buggy. And that would have been anywhere on the planet. Our philosophy and science is the bedrock on which all of the technology that allows people to argue on the internet (without being arrested), allows people to live so well that most people expect to live into their eighties and childbirth is generally safe, allows us to visit the moon and build giant space telescopes. To lose this not only means slowing progress, but possibly losing the ability to keep the progress made.

I think the two world wars together were the end of an epoch. The way the west saw herself before, the way she thought about her artwork, her place in history, her religion, etc. changed pretty radically starting right around the world wars.

I can see this in the context of western Europe (France and Britain in particular) but I don't think it holds in regards to the US. Victory in World War II isn't the end of an epoch for so as much as it is a culmination. The path we set out upon back in the mid 19th century has been shown to be the correct one.

There can be no doubt. For a glorious moment we were both the city on the hill, and the Lord's terrible swift sword.