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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30730 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 3, 2023

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I'm pointing out the that it is illogical to appeal to liberal sensibilities of inclusion to paint liberals as the bad people for rejecting the illiberal tendencies of conservatives.

But your argument is incoherent in the light of the conversation being around the Amish and Hasidim. Their illiberal tendencies are even stronger then those of conservatives.

Of course if conservatives reject liberalism itself, that can't be tolerated for game theoretical reasons.

Ok, but that makes even less sense. Do you think liberals who are in favor of age of consent laws are rejecting liberalism itself? Or are liberals who are in favor of state-recognized marriage being exclusively monogamous rejecting liberalism itself? If not, how were people who were against LGBT rejecting liberalism itself?

It's not incoherent. Amish etc seem content to form their enclaves and practice their values as they see fit without forcing it on others. "Mainstream" social conservatives are not like this and do actively try to pass illiberal policies that would apply to everyone. Even as the Amish are more conservative on the objective level they are more consistent with the liberal meta system.

Do you think liberals who are in favor of age of consent laws are rejecting liberalism itself? Or are liberals who are in favor of state-recognized marriage being exclusively monogamous rejecting liberalism itself?

Depends on how they go about it I think. There are both ethical and secular arguments that can be made for or against both of these. Liberal principles dictate that we should bias ourselves towards a solution that maximizes both personal liberty and liberty of prospective subgroups without causing other on others to be harmed. In practice, if two groups disagree on policy, the more permissive policy has an advantage in that it allows the permissive party and the restrictive party to both coexist (in that the restrictive party and self-apply the more restrictive policy). That's not to say that the more permissive policy is always the right one. In the case of (lowering) the age of consent then the very obvious counter-argument is that children would be harmed by sexual predators.

My original point was that mainstream social conservatives couched their arguments against gay marriage in specifically religious terms which is definitely illiberal: not everyone follows their (interpretation of a specific) religion, so it is illiberal to impose that policy on non-believers on that basis. And so lost the credibility (with mainstream liberals) when they made similar arguments about trans people.

If you want to have an object level discussion about age of consent, or polyamory then state your case.

It's not incoherent. Amish etc seem content to form their enclaves and practice their values as they see fit without forcing it on others. "Mainstream" social conservatives are not like this and do actively try to pass illiberal policies that would apply to everyone

The drama I was using as an example was referring to cases where they were trying to influence their local school boards, so I don't see how they forcing their views on others any more than the Amish do. Also, given what you written below I'm not sure I buy these policies are illiberal to start with.

Depends on how they go about it I think. There are both ethical and secular arguments that can be made for or against both of these.

And there are both ethical and secular arguments that can be made for or against gay marriage, and gender affirming care. Also just because a secular argument can be made, doesn't mean the current implementation of the policy doesn't stem from past religious mores.

Liberal principles dictate that we should bias ourselves towards a solution that maximizes both personal liberty and liberty of prospective subgroups without causing other on others to be harmed.

Liberals have turned away from this principle at least a century ago, in response we've seen the rise of the libertarian movement which tried to stay true to the principle, but they have been mocked and attacked by liberals for as long as I've been alive. You mentioned that conservatives have no credibility in calling upon liberal principles, but you really have to take the beam out of your eye here.

That's not to say that the more permissive policy is always the right one. In the case of (lowering) the age of consent then the very obvious counter-argument is that children would be harmed by sexual predators.

The very same obvious argument is used against the uncritical acceptance of someone's gender identity, and it's backed by actual examples like rapists being sent to women's prisons, and yet somehow that position is deemed "illiberal".

My original point was that mainstream social conservatives couched their arguments against gay marriage in specifically religious terms which is definitely illiberal

Some of them did, some of them didn't. If you wanted to take issue with only the ones that made the religious argument, you should have made that more clear.

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