site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30730 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

This is a bit much. America has a huge obesity problem because they stick all these chemicals in their food. While obesity is a better problem to have than malnutrition as in India, it's still a problem.

I can just not eat the junk right? I'm not making promises, but you can trust me when I say that I keep my weight within a mostly respectable range while having a rather degenerate diet.

If not, well, ozempic is a thing.

America has incredibly diversity in its cuisine, you can find food from pretty much any country in the world with a little bit of effort.

I can only assume you take this for granted, because finding French, Greek, Persian and African food where I live is impossible as far as I know it.

I'm aware that the discrepancy is not as glaring when you compare it to the UK.

I like Australia too, but the same ECFMG issue that makes only the UK an option for current me applies there too.

And in Canada and New Zealand.

All of them are lazy enough to thrust the issue of verifying medical qualifications to EPIC, an aspect of the ECFMG, as well as an additional sponsorship note from the same that my med school lacks. (This is not a legal requirement in India, only something so common everyone takes it for granted)

Whereas the UK only uses the ECFMG to make sure my degree is real and recognized by my nation. They rely on a professional licensing exam, the PLAB, to make sure you know the right way to hold a stetho.

I'd happily go to Australia, as many NHS doctors are already doing!

I can just not eat the junk right? I'm not making promises, but you can trust me when I say that I keep my weight within a mostly respectable range while having a rather degenerate diet.

This is genuinely hard in America! HFCS is in a lot of things. There are comparisons of products in the UK to US products, the American version is full of all kinds of weird stuff: https://foodbabe.com/food-in-america-compared-to-the-u-k-why-is-it-so-different/

There are stories of Americans moving to Europe and losing weight without effort, plus the reverse.

I think nobody should idolize or denigrate countries excessively. America isn't the worst country in the world but it's probably not the best either. There are different kinds of 'best' and worst too, tradeoffs between wealth and health and affordability, quality of life, crime, sane politics and so on. As much as I like Australia, there are all kinds of things wrong with it too. Nuclear power is illegal for instance and we're busily wrecking our energy market with renewable aspirations. The same quality of planning that fumbles all our defence procurement is also wishing for (but not building) enormous amounts of solar, wind and cables to link them all up.

I notice how you fastidiously avoided referring to the drop bear infestation, blink and I'll call for help.

I broadly agree that to qualify a country as "best", you do need to at least flesh out the criteria you're considering, as well as how much you weigh them.

In the realm of comparing say, the US, Australia, Singapore or even Canada, I see no reason to really argue over which must necessarily reign supreme. They all have their perks, but I think most observers will agree that UK, and certainly India, can't compare by the metrics people typically care about the most.

I think I did a decent job of outlining why the US in particular appealed to me!

I'm rather sleep deprived, but I'll chase down your link later.

America has incredibly diversity in its cuisine, you can find food from pretty much any country in the world with a little bit of effort.

Here in America, people have often cited this point as a foreshadowing of why America is in decline. And the meme often goes something like this, "America is no longer a homeland. It is a marketplace." And increasingly this has become an operative principle sewing discontent in Canada, the last number of years as well. It's difficult for me to see how this is a quality instrument for measuring social health. Sure, maybe Muslims will occasionally help themselves to some Panda Express. But they're certainly not going to celebrate Christmas. And they're certainly not going to attend the gay parade, at least without a truck full of explosives.

Lots of Muslims in the USA probably do celebrate Christmas, to one degree or another.

I'm curious what you would consider American "homeland" food. Nearly all of the distinctly American food I can think of is either hyper-local dishes or the result of a fusion of various European, black, and native cuisine.

I can just not eat the junk right? I'm not making promises, but you can trust me when I say that I keep my weight within a mostly respectable range while having a rather degenerate diet

The USA has a far looser set of laws around food additives and also puts a lot more sugar in absolutely everything than any other country in the developed world. If you’re prepared to simply not eat anything processed, then yes, you can. But most people don’t and it’s probably best not to kid yourself that you’re going to- if you eat processed foods in the UK, including meals out of the hospital cafeteria, you’ll probably maintain the same eating habits or even get worse in the US(because restaurants are more convenient and cheaper relative to salary), and that will almost certainly lead to weight gain.

puts a lot more sugar in absolutely everything than any other country in the developed world

Mostly HFCS, actually, as I understand it.

In Ozempic We Trust.

No seriously, I think we're about 4-5 years away from killing the obesity epidemic. Especially when generics become available. It's eye-wateringly expensive by Indian standards, but we can wait.

I believe that the CICO model is more than trivially true, so in practise if I notice I'm gaining weight, I skip meals.

Hell, I already have one meal a day. With takeout prices being what they are, that's about all I can sustainably afford haha

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats