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I guess East Asians have a reputation as being less attractive. Koreans are still seen as handsome, though, see Kpop obsessions and so on. I’ve found (some) Korean men attractive but I think if I met a straight-laced Korean biglaw lawyer set on partner track who seemed more trad (socially/culturally) I’d automatically write him off as probably only interested in Korean women. East Asian men who do well with white women often cultivate either a kind of artsy intellectual vibe or a tattooed vibe (male equivalent of ABG, say) I think because it’s kind of like saying “I’m not the stereotype”.
I think it’s interesting to think about the kind of people you’re attracted to. Something that seems true for both sexes is that while hotness is based on physical features, it also has a lot to do with vibe. I’ve seen women go from being largely invisible to men to doing better with them (not just sex but relationships, dating etc) without changing their physique just by changing the way they do their makeup, changing their fashion, acting differently and seeming less closed off to men.
If I look at Cjet’s profile picture he seems like a handsome guy and I know many people who would go for that kind of thing, but I’ve never been attracted to the default American male vibe, even if their facial features are great. I like tall, skinny, sometimes slightly androgynous white (sometimes jewish) guys with pale skin and long dark hair, at the top end maybe men who could be YSL runway models, I don’t know. This isn’t an uncommon preference among women I grew up with and know, although it’s not the norm. Men who could be described and who might even describe themselves as ‘beautiful’, or at least going for that vibe. In my experience, these men always do quite well with women, even if they’re only average looking, because they have a lot of women friends and are into things that women like like fashion, the arts, literature. So it’s possible I have an inflated (or deflated in this case, I guess) view of how hard it is for the average man to get laid, because in general the men in my life who seem to cultivate a vibe of some kind do well, while the plain, default American kind of guys, even if they have good features and height, might struggle.
I’m not going to universally recommend ‘move to Brooklyn, grow out your hair, cultivate an air of mystery’ to young men struggling with women, but it probably would work for a substantial number of them.
Taking up a vibe isn't as simple as you make it out to be though! You have to find a vibe that is solidly in line with what you're working with. As a (presuming from your writing) gorgeous and intelligent woman, you have more ability to take up whatever aesthetic you choose, and being attractive you will carry it off.
For men, it is just not that simple to pick up a new style. It's not as simple as reading a magazine guide, buying the stuff, learning the lingo, and going to it. There are a great many styles that, even if I put effort into it, just don't match with who I am. A big part of my growing up and becoming attractive to women was realizing that the vibe/aesthetic I should be going for was trad all-American boy. Blond, blue eyed, broad shouldered, sweet, well-read, good family; God help me I spent my teenage years trying to be punk and failing completely. When I started playing to my strengths, I grew into it fast.
But finding one's unique vibe isn't easy for many men, and it isn't the sort of thing that one does simply by following orders. Which is where my old roommate failed. He did his homework in high school, studied hard in undergrad, worked incredibly hard in law school. But in his personal life, no one can tell him what to do with any successful odds.
I agree with most of your post. But this...
Isn't really true. He's a tall, skinny, relatively handsome Korean guy in his late twenties (with money)? Kpop-maxx. Clean-shaven, get the cross earings, the Kpop star haircut, the rockstar clothes (but slightly lower-key). There are girls writing fanfic about a slightly modified version of this guy. In NYC? Some pretty white girl will go for it, probably many more than that. He's a rare niche in the middle of a huge cultural fetish. What do you say to a hot white guy who can't get laid in Southeast Asia? "Go outside"?
Sure, he can get the clothes and the haircut, but who will tell him how to stand? How to talk? What to say? How to carry himself? Because after he buys a new wardrobe, he's still going to be him.
I guess there are skeevy dating coaches out there, but nobody bona fide and normal. Having a perfectly congruent frame and style is difficult to learn in a hurry. And for most men, it tends to start with embarrassment and failure, not instant encouraging success.
This is what I mean when I said:
This is a valid application of privilege and standpoint epistemology: you are genuinely under the impression that just obtaining the outward signs of the aesthetic will get you what you want. For an attractive woman, it will, just dress in a way that signals availability to your target audience and if they like the goods they will pursue. It will not deliver that for a lot of men, there will be something missing, some charisma or naturalness will be absent if your aesthetic isn't congruent with your interiority. You can dress, even look, like a rockstar, but if you aren't a rockstar you will not get rockstar results. The old TRPer proverb about women are human beings and men are human doings?
Is he worthy of someone enduring deep, visceral, biological disgust and misery simply to make him happy? The men I knew that were that determined, hardworking, and admirable didn't have trouble with women.
You're a straight man. Would YOU fuck him, even once, if you thought it would boost his self esteem? If not, why not? Sure, you might find it gross, but people do a lot of gross shit. Would you rather fuck him, or help him bail out his overflowing septic tank using a rented pickup truck and a couple hundred bucks' worth of whatever bullshit you could pick up from the local hardware store?
This is an easy one, I've fixed like five septic tanks in the past year, and fucked zero dudes in that time. Revealed preferences and all that.
There's a big difference between gross, like cleaning up shit, and gross like "sacrificing bodily autonomy."
Fair enough; wondered if you'd see it like undergoing a (painful, gross) medical procedure. Like having your retina lasered because a small part of it became detached (the wonders of mild EDS...) That is an awful lot of septic tanks to be fixing though; most guys fix 0 septic tanks/lifetime...
Once you know how to do it and have a power snake, it becomes a perceived HUGE favor you can do for people. I don't really mind shit anyway. Probably my flavor of autism shining through.
Did you spend a lot of time working around disgusting things, especially growing up...maybe you worked in a slaughterhouse, maybe you worked in healthcare for a time, something like that? IME after a few years in healthcare I stopped caring nearly as much about any disgust I felt. It just straight-up didn't matter. When you're interviewing a guy that smells like an unwashed hobo and have to act like he doesn't smell like an unwashed hobo...or you see someone's guts during surgery...or see other gross shit that goes on in healthcare? You stop caring as much.
As far as autism: did people ever expect you to never have a partner because you were awkward or autistic? Did other men ever express discomfort that you were attracted to people or wanted to be anything other than basically a celibate monk devoting yourself to something prosocial? Would people have been uncomfortable if you'd said you found, say, Miley Cyrus hot when the guys were talking about attractive celebrities? I'm not talking about being shot down, or being roasted for flirting and fucking it up. I'm talking about being seen as and expected to be basically non-sexual and celibate for life, in exchange for ordinary social inclusion.
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