site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   33485 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 19, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

So why don't people want to be called "cis"?

How often do you see the word 'cis' used in a positive context? I'm not even talking about the dismissive 'They're just a cis gendered ... ' that is prevalent on parts of the internet. When have you heard someone say something like 'I'm happy I'm cis'?

Considering how it's used (for the most part) and the fact that it is a label applied to people who didn't choose it (for the most part); I don't see why people would want to be called cis.

My usual phrasing is ‘I am preferentially (as opposed to apathetically) cisgender.’ Which means, yeah, I’m cisgender and happy about it. Happy to say so anytime :)

Never. But I wanted to be a bit less anecdotal and a bit more charitable in my top-level comment.

I wanted to be a bit less anecdotal and a bit more charitable in my top-level comment.

That's fair, I respect that.

Being charitable to attackers is being uncharitable to targets.

It seems you have rediscovered the principle pushed by Ibram X. Kendi and company that there is no such thing as being neutral and by being neutral you are siding with the oppressor.

If one side is actually in the wrong, and the other actually is in the right, attempting to find a middle ground is in fact ceding justice to the unjust. This doesn't apply if the rightness and wrongness of the parties is actually in question. The problem with Kendi isn't that he labels people oppressors, it's that he does so based on no reasonable foundation. Here, the foundation has already been ceded.

"Charitable" is not the same as neutral.

The whole ethos of this forum is to be charitable and assume the best form of your opponent's argument, regardless of how wrong you imagine it/they might be. In the interest of avoiding the easy construction of strawman arguments.

I think you're describing an extreme example, where whoever it is you might be arguing with produces only incomprehensible babble or wild contortions of logic. I'd need a specific example to decide whether I agree with you that in such a case any charitable interaction would be pointless. I would also suggest it is very easy to simply dismiss one's interlocutor/opponent as beyond hope/nuts/irrational, having "no steelman" version, because then no effort need be spent trying to imagine his or her POV.

Steelmanning as I understand it does not mean constructing an elaborate facade of reasonable, fact-based arguments on behalf of your opponent, where you must engage in mental contortionism and grant them every concession--or "accept" their assumptions, as you've phrased it. It simply means making (or assuming) the clearest best form of their argument--which you can then refute.

More comments

hence the Quokka meme that is so richly deserved in the rat community.

Haven't you heard, the new meme animal is the Lemur, the one who lurks.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats