site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   38490 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 5, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I supported Trump and argued for others to do so in 2015. One of my core arguments was that we needed to break the taboo on prosecuting politicians for their misdeeds, because too many politicians had gotten away with serious misconduct for too long. I explicitly argued that Trump getting impeached or prosecuted was a fairly likely outcome of him winning the election, and that this would be an entirely acceptable outcome due to the long-term damage it would do to our current regime, not because the regime would actually start holding people accountable, but purely from heightening of the contradictions, making their hypocrisy evident.

So yes, I absolutely think Trump arguing for prosecution of Clinton has had a direct impact on making his prosecution more likely.

Do you think that the contradictions are, in fact, heightened? That his prosecution is not the predetermined outcome of an impartial process, but very clearly "manipulation of procedural outcomes"?

I think I understand but not completely, what "contradictions" are you referring to? It seems that you're saying Trump's inevitable impeachment would be a good thing insofar as it would highlight how normally permissive the regime is about prosecuting politicians?

I think I understand but not completely, what "contradictions" are you referring to? It seems that you're saying Trump's inevitable impeachment would be a good thing insofar as it would highlight how normally permissive the regime is about prosecuting politicians?

The contradiction I'm pointing to is between the standard applied to an establishment politician, versus the standard applied to an outsider or populist politician. The prosecutions against Trump and his associates can be compared to the passes given to establishment creatures of either party over the last thirty or forty years. Is that clear enough, or are specific examples needed?

I understood this much better after reading the paragraph from your 2016 comment, which I actually agree with completely. I concur there is a glaring hypocrisy with how political leaders get a free pass, in line with a long-standing complaint of mine. That Trump could serve as the mirror to the system's hypocrisy is an incredibly prescient and astute observation of yours.

The only disagreement I have draws on a parallel from my work. I've said many times before that almost all my clients are not just guilty of doing the Thing, but spectacularly obvious about it. It doesn't take any effort from cops to crack the case if (HYPOTHETICALLY) it's a stabbing that occured in broad daylight in view of a dozen cameras, several dozen witnesses, and with the perpetrator yelling his own name. But despite that ridiculous advantage, I still see cops exercise little compunction about violating my clients' rights often for no real benefit, also a long-standing complaint of mine.

The two factors combined often put me in a bind where the cops may have violated my client's rights, but my client was such a dumbass in other ways that I can't do much about it. An illustrative example would be cops coaching a witness to make a false identification about an assault, but my client's well-documented alibi is that he was dealing drugs in another part of town.

That's how I feel about this Trump indictment, did he have to make it so comically easy for the system to go after him?

No offense, but did you really do so in 2015? Can you link to a post arguing that position at that point?

I'm fully prepared to believe that you did. With most other posters I'd doubt. It just sounds like the kind of claims people make with hindsight.

I was wrong, it was 2016, but pre-election. Here's an example:

Generally, he’s a giant roll of the dice. I see the trends over the last twenty years as pretty clearly negative, and while I’m not sure if we’re really in the whole yet, we’re getting there. this seems like the best time to take risks hoping for a major change in course toward something better. If the worst happens and he turns out to be legitimately, unambiguously crazy and/or evil, I have a lot of faith in the ability of a hostile political establishment to mulch him in short order. This too would be good for us, I think, in the sense that it would break the longstanding, idiotic norm in Washington of refusing to punish misbehavior and overreach by the Executive. We are long, long overdue for an actual impeachment, and if that’s the only way Trump ends up serving us, I’d still call it a win.

Amazingly prescient, wow.

Nice.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats