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Admittedly I’m speaking from a Catholic perspective and tend to have view other sects as make it up as you want Christians. Being as Catholics are the preferred faith for pro-life Supreme Court justices I think I am correct in saying true pro-lifers are against abortion and the death penalty. And Catholic doctrine is quite clearly against both.
The death penalty is one of the few areas where I’m disappointed in Desantis and believe he’s doing something for political game versus true beliefs.
I hadn't realized that DeSantis is a Catholic so I will cede your characterization of him in particular as not living up to the ideals he professes in that regard. I think your insistence on using "true pro-lifers" to refer to the Catholic position is obnoxious but there's no point in an extended argument about a label.
It’s probably obnoxious.
Honestly how did you not know Desantis was Catholic? I have a more obvious Italian last name but that’s still looks very Italian to me.
As I think about it this morning I wish the church would get aggressive and ban him from communion over his death penalty stance and make him apologize. It would make them look more honest when they talk about doing it with Biden.
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With the partial exception of Barrett, the catholic pro-life justices are not notably more anti-death penalty than they are pro-abortion. ‘Consistent life ethic’ is clearly a minority position among intellectual Catholic circles in the US even as it’s a politically correct consensus view.
They are not in communion with Rome on that issue. As someone who went to the same school as ACB and who went to pro-life marches a person who is Catholic first would be against the death penalty. The evangelicals have always been anti-abortion pro death penalty vibes but I don’t think an intellectually honest (most people aren’t) could view life as sacred and take that view.
But I also think the old slur about a Catholic politician having to bend the knee to Rome is true. It’s what makes us undesirable POTUS to most but very desirable for the Supreme Court when Rome and a political movement have an agreement on an issue.
I don't think this means what you think it means, or anything at all for that matter. "In communion with Rome" does not in itself have very much to do with moral views and you can make the argument that Desantis and Thomas are committing heresy(which does not actually in itself take them outside of the communion of the Catholic church) because of their stances on the death penalty, but you run into the fact that the RCC is not George Lucas- it can't make arbitrary changes, and previous infallible declarations(and the literal words of the scripture) have found the death penalty at least potentially permissible. The justification for the declaration that the death penalty is inherently inadmissable is the claim that advances in penal technology have eliminated the necessity to the use of the death penalty. This is a prudential claim which can't be infallible in itself- it's perfectly possible to claim that the death penalty is necessary either because of unfixable deficiencies in the criminal justice system or due to the deterrent effect, and whether those claims happen to be right or not doesn't have very much to do with whether or not they are heresy.
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killing babies is wrong because the babies are innocent. Executing murderers is not wrong, because they are not innocent. "If a man sheds blood, by man shall his blood be shed." How is that incompatible with a view of life being sacred?
Ok fair enough. But I don’t think that works for a Christian. Jesus ate with hookers. The whole Christ narrative is that he died for our sins and his resurrection redeemed us.
Even the “worst person in the world” toddler raper can be redeemed and the sacredness of his life isn’t his deeds but that he was made in gods image.
So while I agree that your logic can work I don’t think it fits with being a Christian which most pro-life people claim some kind of Christianity. The sacredness of their life isn’t related to their deeds it’s sacred because they are human.
I’m against the death penalty. I only view it as viable to when there are no other options like someone whose killing in prison and you need to protect other inmates. Solitary is an option but some have done bad there and solitary can be a very cruel punishment perhaps worse than death.
So I can agree your logic can work but I don’t think that was Christ message and I’m labeling them evangelicals but I think they are wrong.
None of that has anything at all to do with systems of earthly justice. Salvation from sins is not a free pass from the consequences of sin here and now. Stealing and repenting of it doesn't mean you don't go to jail, and in fact the proper thing to do is to take the penalty willingly because you agree it is just.
The life they took was also sacred, and they violated that sanctity through murder. Executing them is a balancing of the scales. It's not about revenge, or anger or hatred, it's about what is just.
It's entirely Christian to reject one's own claims to justice, to forgive someone who has stolen from you, to deny that they have stolen by stating that you give what they took freely. Notably, the victims of murder cannot actually do this, and it is at least highly questionable whether others can meaningfully do it on their behalf. It is not Christian to attempt to overthrow the entire concept of earthly justice, to try to enforce this sort of forgiveness on those unwilling or unable to offer it freely.
The whole point of justice, of laws, is that it is supposed to be impartially and uniformly enforced. The whole point of Christianity is that it is a free choice by the individual, an acceptance of a gift freely offered. The two have a lot less to do with each other than people imagine.
as far as I know Jesus only comment about the death penalty was "he who is without sin cast the first stone" which seems to imply that he is opposed to the death penalty unless the person imposing it is without sin. now you could say that that is only certain in the case of adultery which was the context of that quote, but given that statement and the general emphasis on focusing on the next life rather than this one, if I had to bet, I would assume jesus would be against the death penalty for other wrongdoings as well.
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The very point of being a Christian is you give up earthly justice. I know you wrote a lot but I feel like that is a first principle being Christian means you give up a right to earthly justice.
Also curious if you are trying to write from a different Christian view.
Is the point of being a Christian that you give up material wealth, because your treasure is in heaven, and therefore no true Christian should have a home or a bank account?
No. Having money isn't un-Christian, loving money is un-Christian. Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all he had, give to the poor, and to follow him. He did not tell Zacchaeus to do the same, and viewed Zacchaeus making ample restitution to those he had wronged as sufficient. Annanias and Saphira were not struck down for not giving all they owned, they were struck down for lying about what they had given. Whether to sell the land was their choice, and whether to give some or all of the money was likewise a free choice, not a moral imperative.
Christians can have jobs and draw paychecks for working them. They can choose how to spend the money they earn. What they shouldn't do is treat the money as an end to itself, or think that it is there to gratify their desires. They should feed themselves, clothe themselves, house themselves to the extent that they are able, engaging in honest work and careful use of their resources to satisfy their own needs, and to build the capacity to help those around them who are in need. They should always be willing and able to walk away from their material wealth if that is what is necessary, but it is not always or even often necessary. What Christians should do with money is not reducible to a hard and fast rule, any more than their other moral commitments. Obviously they should not steal or cheat, and they should tithe, but these rules are not sufficient to capture the deeper reality of what it means to steward value in service of God.
Likewise with Justice, and law generally, and military force and a great many other things: these are part of the world that Christians are commanded to live in and to interact with, and simply abdicating all involvement and responsibility is not a general solution to the problem. There does not, in fact, appear to be a general solution to these problems, only imperfect tradeoffs. Christians should do their best to trade well, not foolishly squander what they have been given. There are circumstances when mercy is squandering what you have been given, and there are circumstances where mercy is imperative, and it is not possible for limited, flawed humans to always make the right call. All we can do is use what wisdom we have to try our best.
I don’t disagree entirely but we don’t get to take a life if we have another option. Most death penalty cases have another option.
A murderer can just be in prison. A child rapists can just be in prison. As much as we all agree they deserve death we can just remove them from society.
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