site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   31951 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 22, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The problem though is 'the people' seemed to want no barrier at all, which was incompatible with the Brexit which they also apparently wanted. If they ask for no border in the Irish sea, and no border on the Irish border, but also a border somewhere, you can't blame the politicians for failing to deliver on the impossible wishes of the 'people'.

What's impossible about letting in the Irish, but not other EU members?

How so?

A lot of policies end up copy-pasted from the EU anyway, I think that's what happened with the Even More Annoying Cookie Banner Directive. Another curious thing is how all of Europe, including the UK, is now simultaneously passing gender self-ID. To be fair I think the problem is bigger than the EU but also let's not pretend the UK is independent now and it's elites are listening to the people.

Why should it be a surprise when Brexit did, indeed, mean a Brexit - UK exiting the organization called EU - and did not in fact mean all the other stuff that Brexiteers kind of vaguely implicated Brexit would bring, like lower immigration? If anything wouldn't it just prove that EU is actually fairly inconsequential insofar as migrant flows from outside of EU itself are concerned?

Sort of. All official layers of government are inconsequential, the elites coordinate independently from them. Although the EU is deliberately set up in such a way as to allow them to make decisions with minimal input from the people they rule over.

What's impossible about letting in the Irish, but not other EU members?

Well because in order to determine which people and goods are Irish, and which are not (which in itself already creates problems given the free flow of EU goods into Ireland, so the distinctions are not entirely clear), one has to have a 'hard' border, with supervised crossing points etc. in order to carry out the necessary checks. No-one supports such a border because it endangers the Good Friday agreement, and the only other possibility if you want a border somewhere it so check goods moving between NI and the UK.

The transplanting of EU law had to happen. One cannot simply abolish a regulatory framework built up over decades overnight.

I can agree about the goods, that's a lot trickier. People? You can have it half automatized by scanning the cars coming in, and then checking for passports.

The transplanting of EU law had to happen. One cannot simply abolish a regulatory framework built up over decades overnight.

How does the regulatory framework require stupid cookie banners, and gender self-ID? These are new / relatively new laws even in the EU itself.

I can agree about the goods, that's a lot trickier

Goods has always been the main sticking point really, and it's integral to the border question.

You can have it half automatized by scanning the cars coming in, and then checking for passports.

Maybe? This is what Gove would occasionally to try to square the circle, 'technological solution blah blah blah', but at the current moment it does seem that one does require some physical border presence/infrastructure to keep some people out, so there really is no getting round the Good Friday question. A border must fall somewhere.

How does the regulatory framework require stupid cookie banners, and gender self-ID? These are new / relatively new laws even in the EU itself.

The government did not comb through EU regulations one by one (that is hardly plausible), they just transplanted them all directly into UK law with the view that if they wanted to get rid of any they could just do it later, which they still can do (and the usual suspects keep prattling on about a 'bonfire' etc.), but no-one in Britain actually cares about GDPR so they have no compelling reason to really bother.

The government did not comb through EU regulations one by one (that is hardly plausible),

I'm pretty sure transplanting a law involves more than CTRL+A, CTRL+C, and CTRL+V, so someone is actually combing through these regulations. The easiest thing to do would be to just ignore them. If they are just taking the path of least resistance, like you seem to be implying in the border example, they'd just ignore the cookie banner directive, and self-ID.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats