This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'm not too well versed in the revisionist position, I just know stuff I've seen on 4chan's politics board over the years, but wasn't the argument against the holocaust that Jews did die in camps, but they weren't gassed or purposely executed? From what I recall, they claimed that Jews died from starvation and typhus after supplies to the camps got cut when the Germans started losing the war, and that the gas was used to try to stop the spread of typhus by delousing clothes.
The problem with this is that the majority of Jews in question "disappeared" in 1942 - 43 which was well before German infrastructure began falling apart.
I don't see how it's a problem, anyone taken to the camps would "disappear" when they were imprisoned, not when they died.
When people were kept in concentration camps, they were recorded as such. The Nazis kept records of inmate population at places like Auschwitz and Dachau which makes sense because you want to have a good idea of the size of your labour pool.
What happened in 1942 - 43 is that the Polish General Government was cleared of Jews. As surviving documents attest, 2,000,000 were deported to three camps: Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. These camps were not like Auschwitz or Dachau, they were tiny little outposts in the Polish countryside, not big enough to accommodate ten thousand prisoners, let alone the hundreds of thousands they received. After this point these Jews disappear from Nazi documentation and from history. Revisionists want to claim that these camps were 'transit' centers by which the deportees were resettled in the "Russian east" but the problem is that there is no evidence, testimonial, physical, or documentary for the massive logistical effort that such a resettlement would have entailed. The paper trail ends at Treblinka, so to speak. That's what I mean by "disappear." It's well-documented that these people wound up in these places, but after that there's only a gaping hole in the historical record. Unless you account for the hundreds of testimonies from guards and prisoners at these places identifying them as extermination camps, and the huge quantities of human ash found by more recent archaeological investigations.
Alright, that actually makes sense.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
That's the principle issue of Holocaust Denial. I've never been super interested in the field but my very primitive understanding is that there are very few people who are doubting that there were Jews persecuted/killed etc etc.
It's more how it's been a cottage industry for almost a century now to come up with tales of torture, persecution and murder which have forged an unholy Holocaust Extended Suffering Universe in which it is difficult to refute individual claims even ones which violate a lot of logic.
Totally going to start using the phrase Holocaust Extended Suffering Universe. It doesn’t really change the moral character of the Holocaust if 1 million Jews, 6 million Jews, or 200-300 thousand Jews were killed in the Holocaust. It was still a horrible tragedy, and I say that as someone who does not like Jews or gypsies or Russians very much. The claims of radicals who continually expand the numbers to make some political point are obviously at some point stupid, but yes, there is strong evidence that the SS deliberately murdered a large number of Jews(and other groups).
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link