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Culture War Roundup for the week of May 1, 2023

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People claim that it’s hard to be healthy, get enough protein, or not be deficient in key minerals on a vegan diet.

Put simply, that part is cope. People could switch to vegan diets if they wanted to, but having a bunch of reasons why they totally can't renders it all that much easier to justify electing not to do so. I've had similar experiences with all manner of dietary choices that people insist make a huge difference in whatever direction, and many of them aren't anywhere near as fit as me (although my race paces still lag well behind yours, congrats on the sub-15). Anecdotally, I really doubt that nutritional style is holding many people back in their health and fitness goals, it's much more about specific selections and quantity of food.

Nutrition isn’t a serious barrier, so what’s your excuse?

I like meat. I'm unbothered by the general claims regarding sustainability because I'm willing to pay the going rate for local farms that I know and trust, so whether other people can afford to or are willing to doesn't impact me. I freely confess that killing sentient animals bothers me a little, but it doesn't bother me much and I don't think it's an ethical imperative to not do so. The mice that I killed as a researcher bother me much more than the cattle that have decent enough pastured lives before being killed and much, much more than the deer that's shot through the lungs and dropped. Eggs are even easier to justify - I get them from parents, whose chickens seem to live much more pleasant lives than the median bird. Fish lives simply don't matter and there's plenty of bluegill and perch in the lake.

The egg thing always bothered me, as someone who's had family members that raised chickens. Modern hens produce a shit ton of eggs and will literally go insane ("broody") and starve themselves to death sitting on unfertilized eggs if you don't collect them. What's the vegan rationale for refusing to eat them? I can see being against factory farming or whatever (I don't agree, but I can acknowledge that there exists a consistent ethical system to be against it), but just flat out refusing to consume all animal products regardless of context seems overly dogmatic.

The closest thing to a steelman I can come up with is something like, the chickens didn't consent to be your pet so it's unethical to raise them in the first place. But given that the majority of vegans I've met have pet cats, I don't think that's the logic. If it's ethical to raise and provide for an animal (with conditions superior to what can be found in the wild!) and to do so you need to perform some caretaking task that creates something usable as a byproduct (eggs from chicken, wool from modern sheep) it certainly seems as though you could reconcile eating eggs and wearing wool with being vegan, unless you're willing to bite the bullet and just admit that the modern domesticated breeds of these animals are unfit to survive and should go extinct, which is... a take.

Deeper in the thread I was arguing with a guy who literally just said these animals should… cease to exist? I guess? So the take is a real one.

I’m a little fuzzy on the mechanics, but a “final solution” for farm animals from a vegan perspective is honestly a bit hilarious.

I respect this attitude, and I think it is directionally the same as me, although I am much more uncomfortable killing animals.

On the exercise point I think the real important factor is just the specific stimulus. My mile (running) and triathlon PRs are from when I was meat eater and honestly eating crap (sleeves of Goya cookies for lunch), but my training stimulus was almost perfect.