This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
That horror is a Modern viewpoint.
Throughout history, among the rich, a head of house would purchase an heir for himself by paying his bride’s father a dowry for his fertile daughter, and trust Fortune or Providence for a son, and hope his wife wouldn’t die in the process, because dowries are expensive. Some societies had polygamy to combat death by pregnancy.
Meanwhile, the poor would be born from cheap marriages, from flings and dalliances, from true love, and from rapes.
Note that I’m not saying any of that was better than marriage for love and a child as a happy accident or a choice, as the result of love!
I am saying that it’s in our genes, and thus in our gene-created brains’ instincts, to treat reproduction as a transaction, because that’s how humanity has survived to the point where anything less than this historical luxury is a horror.
I'm a bit skeptical given how self-congratulatory the Moderns are, and how they love to misportray their predecessors - let's say that it is. I'm going to go with a "so what?" on that one.
Wasn't it the daughter's father paying a dowry?
Ok, well, let's shut down all the Holocaust museums around the world, because genocide is in our genes, and our horror in reaction to it comes from our current historical luxury.
You're right, the dowry is paid by the bride’s family to the groom as the bride’s part of her and her siblings’ inheritance. I was thinking of bride-price:
As for the horror of considering the economic value of people when making family and reproductive decisions, I too prefer the luxury or privilege of the present age to the “state of nature” which preceded it. As I prefer living in a society where people are not legally enslaved or hunted for their tribal ancestry.
However, infertility and inconvenience are both considered problems which surrogacy can resolve; my disgust with surrogacy is not in the payment for services rendered (which I as a libertarian applaud) but in the implied infidelity (which I as a Christian oppose).
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link