site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 10, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

14
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

So if the government created a law banning you personally from voting in any election, you wouldn't consider that an abridgement of your freedoms?

Me personally, for no reason? Probably.

Revoking the franchise from some group of which I am a member(the unmarried, non veterans, whatever)? Quite possibly not.

Why do you draw the distinction?

Impartiality of the law matters even when it doesn’t particularly help you. A law like ‘only married people/veterans business owners/people with college degrees can vote’ might not be to my benefit, but it is an objective and consistent standard. On the other hand ‘only people not named hydroacetylene can vote’ is not an objective and consistent standard, it’s just formalized corruption.

But the issue in the discussion is not what is objective, consistent, or otherwise good - it's what is a restriction of freedom or not.

Making rape illegal is a restriction of freedom, but a good one.

Freedoms, no. Rights? Perhaps. But targeting it to an individual has a different concepts compared to class.

However, prospect theory likely suggests that once you go down a path it becomes untenable to return to status quo ante. The 16th-19th amendments were a disaster.

Freedoms, no.

Why not?

Because it doesn’t affect my ability to perform basic activities (eg buy property, choose what religion I believe in, associate with whom I want, say what I think etc).