This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I think it follows, because enjoyments appear to increase from increased sensitivity (ability to discern and contrast, let’s say) in relation to the object of experience for every category I can imagine. The enjoyment of a soft blanket is reduced from calloused or numb hands. Someone who has trained their sense of taste can generally recognize more flavors and thus enjoy more. Someone who is familiar with different wines can enjoy a good wine more. Someone who can hardly hear will not enjoy bird sounds as much as someone who can hear every nuance of them. It’s actually hard to think of any enjoyment that isn’t increased from increased ability to discern, compare, and understand the object(s). This is what the whole idea of being a connoisseur is about. I can certainly appreciate music more on better headphones, and certainly appreciate it more with the more sensitivity I’ve gained from listening/understanding pieces. When Covid reduced people’s ability to discern flavors, it reduced people’s enjoyments. When people with poor eyesight get glasses, they usually note that they can enjoy what they see more. So I think this is a fine assumption for me to make but I’m open to examples of where the correlation fails.
I don't think any of this is true. I think someone who is familiar with different wines can convince themselves that they enjoy a good wine more than a layman who isn't. They might be able to appreciate certain specific aspects of the wine than a layman without a refined palette, but whether or not they actually enjoy it more is an open question. Similarly, someone who can hear every nuance of a bird song might be able to appreciate certain aspects of it more than someone who's nearly deaf and can only hear some dull muffled noises, but whether or not they get actual greater enjoyment out of it is an open question. Enjoyment and appreciation aren't the same things.
It's also impossible to generalize from individuals comparing the enjoyment from 2 different states of sensitivity, because that's vastly different from comparing enjoyment of 2 different entities. I might enjoy the same song more when I hear it through clear headphones instead of through a muffled speaker in another room, but all that tells me is that I enjoy that music more with increased sensitivity. Someone else could just as easily get far greater enjoyment out of the percussive music of 2 random rocks being struck together as I do from listening to Beethoven's 5th symphony through high-end headphones. Someone else could just as easily get far greater enjoyment out of some grilled roadkill as I do from a finely prepared and seasoned steak from a fancy restaurant. Connoisseurs might have more dimensions to appreciate certain aspects of whatever they're enjoying, and that might give them the language and excuse to convince themselves that they enjoy it more, but that doesn't mean that they actually do enjoy it more.
I think this is stretching relativism a little too much. A person who prefers listening to a low quality version of a song over a high quality version is someone who is odd, or interested in it for non-musical reasons like nostalgia. The vast majority of people prefer high fidelity music (that they can perceive). Sites like YouTube and phones like the iPhone make the default audio card high quality because so many people enjoy this. Similarly, only a very rare person enjoys watching videos on 480p, or collecting lo-res images.
There really seems to be a clear association between greater sensitivity/detail/perception (whichever word we want to use, they refer to the same cognitive antecedents) and increased enjoyment. Why go see a symphony in person if the experience is not greater? Why bother with greater graphics?
Is it really open? What bird song enjoyer would not desire to hear bird songs in maximum fidelity? It’s considered a tragedy when bird song enjoyers have reduced hearing sensitivity
You're comparing the difference within an individual and the difference between individuals in terms of enjoyment from different fidelity. Different individuals have intrinsically subjective experience of what they enjoy, and this difference is even more pronounced when comparing different species. The leap in how a dog's taste sensations translate to the dog's experience of "enjoyment" is something that's not really understood, even worse than how the leap exists in humans. So positing a sort of straight-up relationship between the higher sensitivity to higher enjoyment (or potential for such) isn't justified.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
To a point, sure. But too much sensitivity can lead to something pleasurable becoming painful. I think that @07mk is right, and it's an oversimplification to say that more sensitive = more pleasure.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link