site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   36053 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 20, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

For example, the idea that methodological constraints actually are a metaphysical theory, or further implying that shoes are atheists. Or that New/Internet Atheists almost certainly led to a willingness to embrace relativism everywhere and ultimately wokeism by the masses of "laypeople". Or perhaps other things, I'm not sure how general the OP was, but I don't think we're allowed to hypothesize that they just want to bash the outgroup generally for the lulz. We probably want to keep it to the motte.

For example, the idea that methodological constraints actually are a metaphysical theory

My metaphysical theory is that it is unproductive to subscribe to (any other, esp. adversarially wrought) metaphysical theories that are untestable given my methodological constraints. The difference is subtle but I consider it pretty important.

implying that shoes are atheists

Is this some in-joke I am not privy to? I don't understand in what sense shoes can be modelled to hold beliefs, so the statement is a category error.

Or that New/Internet Atheists almost certainly led to a willingness to embrace relativism everywhere and ultimately wokeism by the masses of "laypeople".

That's an interesting theory and all, but that does not have any bearing on the correctness of atheism (any more than the horrors of global thermonuclear war should make you doubt the correctness of atomic theory). If you are concerned with instrumentality of beliefs regardless of their correctness, we are home to a great contingent of post-rationalists who I'm sure are receptive to arguments about which false beliefs are most conducive to human flourishing.

My metaphysical theory is that it is unproductive to subscribe to (any other, esp. adversarially wrought) metaphysical theories that are untestable given my methodological constraints.

How did you test that metaphysical theory?

Is this some in-joke I am not privy to?

Ohhh, shoes were all the rage. You do better than to fall into that hole, but it's mostly a funny dig.

that does not have any bearing on the correctness of atheism

I didn't say that it does. It's just a bonus that atheism likely enabled the very thing that OP was decrying.

How did you test that metaphysical theory?

I didn't. Metaphysical theories are those that can't be tested, right? It's really more like a religion, and I did the same thing that people did for their choice of religion since written history began, which is a mixture of copying that which people around me believed and siding with the camp whose prophets work the most impressive miracles.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats