site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

15
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Your 30x-great-grandparents didn't have diapers, and any cloth their child wore, the woman probably had to spin or weave herself. Food was available, but instead of being "$1/lb of lentils", had to be sown and harvested by hand (unless a bad season came, in which case, hopefully you have enough preserved). Instead of 'decent, but not ideal labor laws' - maybe you were a serf. Medical care was often counterproductive in the 1800s, to say nothing of the 1600s, and ~ half your kids would die before adulthood - vs today, where advanced medical technology built on millions of man-hours of basic research and 'big pharma' development is available to both the poor and the rich, and the gap continues to close (even things like 'obamacare' helped a little!). With within-state freedom of movement, a functioning rental market, a, by any historical standard, class-free and socially permissive society, and the internet, 'replacing a network' is easier than ever - 'moving to a new city' isn't a catastrophe. Historically, 'plane tickets' or 'moving truck rentals' weren't available to people of any class. Interstate travel is, today, incredibly cheap in any sense. Historical people lived in a society 100x more backwards and reactionary than ... even the backwards evangelicals of 2000. Instead of a therapist, a priest?

Despite all of that, said grandparents would, given the calories available, and after accounting for childhood mortality, have a TFR of 3 or higher. This is both because birth control didn't exist, because children became economically useful quickly, and because it was heavily socially valued. Every point you made is on a strong trajectory towards 'less of a burden' - yet you just don't prioritize having children over them!

You say all of this is easy...and yet if I got pregnant tomorrow, I would not be able to make enough money in nine months to pay for my child's daycare, clothing, food, and my own needs. I would have to surrender my child to the state, because I would also have medical debt on top of that for the not-free doctors I would have to see while pregnant, unless I wanted to avoid doctors and attempt to induce a miscarriage by negligence, which could be life threatening to me or hurt my fertility. You say interstate travel is incredibly cheap, but the amount of money required to move myself from a one-bedroom apartment to anywhere else is far from cheap for my wages.

So, I am not too sure where "you don't prioritize having children" comes in.

A person who very strongly valued children would dramatically cut back other expenses, whether they be 'travel', 'restaurants', 'not living in a low COL area', 'daycare' (when mom and dad were working the fields, they couldn't exactly hire childcare. maybe live near grandparents or something?). They would not choose to not have children over potential medical difficulties.

but the amount of money required to move myself from a one-bedroom apartment to anywhere else is far from cheap for my wages.

I'm not sure what your wages are, but I'm confident it's doable. If you and your bf/husband thought it was essentially necessary to have and raise children, these issues would be less!

--

Okay, that's 'extreme' to a modern ear, but - how do bottom 5% income americans have children? Or, for that matter, extremely poor urban africans or south asians? Surely every problem you have is worse for the poorest americans and 10x worse for poor africans/south asians, yet their fertility rates are higher than ours.