This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Trans people encounter negative outcomes from social conservatives attempting to enforce a gender binary, so if I wanted to protect my trans children from transphobia, I ought to keep them away from social conservatives, not ko-tow to them. I can do nothing about my children being trans, because it is not a choice. And if my children were not trans, social conservatives would emotionally and verbally abuse them for stepping outside of the gender binary. My sons would grow up misogynistic with little success with women, emotionally closed off from himself, his friends and his family, abusive (see misogyny) and lonely like I have seen every single conservative son of conservative parents turn out as. My daughter would have poor self esteem, be victim to abusive relationships due to that, anger issues and extreme emotional immaturity, like every conservative daughter of a conservative father I have seen.
You don't know this. There is no conclusive evidence that this is true.
No, discredited or stratight up retracted brain scan studies with tiny samples when you'd need huge ones to get anything that isn't noise do not count.
The latter points about conservative education are just instantly disproven by any glance at an Islamic country and its rates of marriage and births. The criticism you're levying here isn't based in any practicality. It's 100% moralist grandstanding.
Well, when I glance at Islamic countries, I see a national social crisis because women are being arrested and beaten to death for not wearing a head scarf properly. I don't know if theocratic authoritarian Islamic countries are the epitome of any healthy civilization, much less the epitome of what marriage and parenting is like.
I do know that being trans in not a choice, because gender dysphoria is a medical condition, not a lifestyle choice.
And yet, people there are having more children than in the West, by a large margin. Calling Magians unhealthy from your standpoint is throwing stones in glass houses. And I notice again, the things you're objecting to are entirely based on your moral outlook and not practical considerations of survival.
We'll see who is still there to call who unhealthy in a century.
As for the trans question, I hold it to be a religious matter. Paraphilias and dysphoria are not a choice but only in the sense that "lifestyle choice" is a nonsense concept that refers to nothing real or important borne out of pure enlightenment ideology. All these can very well be socially conditioned, as I bet you recognize in any other setting where it is politically useful, and this equivocation of medical condition and truth about the soul is not coherent.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Just to be clear, are you saying that all conservatives raised in conservative households are abusers/abuse victims based on their gender? This is such a comically uncharitable view(all members of my outgroup are mentally ill and morally repugnant) that I cannot believe you are posting here in good faith.
Based on their gender? No. But yes, I believe that the parenting style advocated by social conservatives is inherently emotionally (ex: shaming children for stepping outside of the gender binary), verbally (ex: it is suitable to tell children you want to be quiet to be "seen and not heard") and physically (ex: spanking) abusive, and therefore people raised in a conservative household are victims of abuse, and people who raise children in a conservative household are abusers, although the rate at which the abuse is a) deliberate and b) realized varies. I don't think most conservatives and therefore people *want * to abuse or be abused, but it is an unfortunate side effect of the tenets of social conservatism.
I may have been unclear with that "Based on their gender" comment - I was referring to the abuser/abuse victim distinction.
However your post does actually make the critique that I made in reply to another comment more impactful, especially considering you are still using social conservative rather than republican. Social conservatism is essentially the norm outside of WEIRD nations, so when you say that all conservatives are mentally ill abusers you're also making some incredibly racially inflammatory and culturally insensitive claims. As someone who has experience with a lot of people from different cultures, I think most of them would find the idea that they don't actually like their culture and have essentially been tricked into not being a western liberal because they're abuse victims deeply offensive. The idea that every single woman who was raised in a traditional buddhist culture has poor self-esteem, anger issues and extreme emotional immaturity is just farcical.
This is why I believed you were not posting in good faith - your argument is essentially claiming that the majority of non western and non-white cultures are just systems of perpetual abuse, and that's so intolerant that it makes Donald Trump look left-wing.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
"My outrgroup are uniformly engaged in a crime" is a position you can definitely hold and argue in good faith. I think all culture wars in history have basically been about that.
I am operating under the assumption that justawoman is a liberal (they have said as much, so I don't think this is being uncharitable) - and that does actually preclude you from making the argument that she just made in good faith. Social conservatism is essentially the norm outside of WEIRD nations, so when she says that all conservatives are mentally ill abusers she's also making some incredibly racially inflammatory and culturally insensitive claims. As someone who has experience with a lot of people from different cultures, I think most of them would find the idea that they don't actually like their culture and have essentially been tricked into not being a western liberal because they're abuse victims deeply offensive. The idea that every single woman who was raised in a traditional buddhist culture has poor self-esteem, anger issues and extreme emotional immaturity is just farcical.
That argument and conclusion absolutely do not match what I see liberals believing and arguing, which is why I expressed my doubt as to that argument being made in good faith and hence asked for clarification.
Every single woman who is raised to believe that they are lesser than others and grows up to believe they are lesser than others for no other reason than their biology has poor self esteem, that is my belief yes. That goes the same for a man. I think that all men and women are equally capable of the same range and rate of thoughts and feelings, and so to be told otherwise and lead to believe otherwise leads to natural misery.
I don't believe you're correct. I have a disability which means that a certain type of feeling is forever closed off to me - my body is imperfect, and as such I am fundamentally incapable of certain perceptions. In my case, to believe that I am not handicapped in this way would actually lead me to greater suffering as I attempted to perform tasks which I am simply congenitally unable to do. Not recognising my own limitations is actually far more dangerous, whereas appreciating and accepting them allows me to account for my limitations and live a more satisfying life within those bounds. Similarly, I think that if I tell a small filipino woman that she is just as capable of lifting heavy weights as an icelandic bodybuilder (or getting to experience what that feels like) then I am actually harming her if she tries to act on that information. There are actual physiological differences between men and women, and a lot of feelings and thoughts are downstream from that.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link