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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34909 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 13, 2023

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I do not believe any of your complaints are relevant because they not only apply, but apply much harder, in countries with high fertility rates.

If anything, a blind adherance to the data would show that the exact opposite of your prescriptions would be useful, if increasing fertility is the only value we're optimizing for. Make people poorer, more conservative and intolerant, add corrupt and dysfunctional governments, remove welfare and social comforts, etc.

EDIT: I should clarify that your complaints may be valid for other reasons, but in terms of increasing fertility, the variables you're suggesting tweaking not only are unrelated but inversely correlated with the desired effect.

EDIT 2: Actually, to avoid being guilty of the same thing I suspect you of, I should clarify that I think you're playing dumb and are putting forth spurious arguments to passive-aggressively poke the bear here.

If you think I am playing dumb and lying, I am confused about the tone of conversation your response has. Why would you want someone who you think is playing games to respond to you?

I suppose if the true goal is numbers, your proposition would work. But I consider fertility to include "successfully raising children into adulthood so they have more children". If people are having kids, but their children are dying early due to poor health standards and abuse, is that raising the fertility?

I suppose if the true goal is numbers, your proposition would work. But I consider fertility to include "successfully raising children into adulthood so they have more children". If people are having kids, but their children are dying early due to poor health standards and abuse, is that raising the fertility?

The most extreme far right of social conservatives seem to want to return the world to about 1919. (The year before the nineteenth amendment.) In that year child mortality was about 180/thousand, compared to today's 7/thousand. (Let's assume that this is 100% the fault of economic and social institutions, rather than medical technology.) At that same year the fertility rate was 3.3 compared to today's 1.8. The math definitely works out in favor of 1919.

Of course, the "sweet spot" seems to be during the baby boom in the 1950s, when the fertility was also about 3.3 and the child mortality was 30/thousand.

If you think I am playing dumb and lying, I am confused about the tone of conversation your response has. Why would you want someone who you think is playing games to respond to you?

Why should I be an asshole unless I'm entirely sure you're picking a fight? Even if I were sure. It costs nothing to be civil on a semi-anonymous internet forum.

Do you think telling me you think I am playing dumb and lying about my beliefs to be civil?

Do you think telling me you think I am playing dumb and lying about my beliefs to be civil?

Yes, I believe I phrased my doubts civilly.

In other conversations, you seem not to separate the content of a belief from whether it's being argued fairly. Elsewhere, you say:

I am making it all about myself because I am a woman, and every generalized comment about women is therefore directed at me. When you say men are funnier than women, you are also saying you are funnier than me, for no other reason than because of your body. The "big deal" of you holding that opinion is that I find it's a rather illogical and mean one,

So, in your view, the opinion "Men are funnier than women" cannot be held or argued without it being an insult. I do not see it that way. I also do not see "Men are immoral" as an insult. And unless I'm grossly misunderstanding the rules, neither does The Motte. You would be closer to the bone accusing lack of charity, but you'll find I did respond to your arguments as you stated them, while leaving that I doubted your good faith as a sidenote disclosure.

I think you're playing dumb and are putting forth spurious arguments to passive-aggressively poke the bear here.

These are all, like it or not, probably the median opinion among 20-something year old liberals. There's definitely a tension in modern society where prime biological fertility corresponds to the most financially vulnerable and lowest-earning part of a typical career. Its also well known that young healthy people are overcharged for health care in order to prop up the insurance market.

Yeah, even if it's just someone trolling, it's still interesting to respond seriously to the arguments, they're pretty similar to what left-leaning people actually believe

Purely economically speaking, points #1 and #3 are common. But if you read past that, each of the points has an element of "conservativism is the root cause of low fertility", which seems to me like a frustrated parody of "feminism is the root cause of low fertility", something people do unironically believe. I think point #5 in particular stands out as something even the most progressive of progressive would not blame on low fertility rates. "The problem is, religious bigotry such as my parents subjected me to is supressing birth rates" is an argument that is both bizarre on the surface, and one I have never heard anyone make. Even very very anti-religious people will concede social conservatism tends to pump out the babies.

"The problem is, religious bigotry such as my parents subjected me to is supressing birth rates" is an argument that is both bizarre on the surface, and one I have never heard anyone make. Even very very anti-religious people will concede social conservatism tends to pump out the babies.

You're thinking too meta. Having a bad relationship with your parents almost certainly makes you less enthusiastic about becoming a parent yourself.

Hm... I think you're being a bit of a quokka here, but let's wait and see. She just concluded a fairly heated debate with @f3zinker in the previous thread and I get the impression she's kinda done with us. Would love to be wrong though.

Im smelling the same thing you are smelling.

No, I am not done with ya'll. I just don't know what you mean by "wait and see".

No, I am not done with ya'll. I just don't know what you mean by "wait and see".

There's a bit of a pattern among left-leaning users who depart here that, before they leave in a huff, they'll start posting provocative inflammatory things that parody the tone and style of the people they're fighting with. @PmMeClassicMemes is a recent example, but unfortunately they deleted their profile so I can't show you.

"Wait and see" means that, if I see you continuing to debate in good faith, I'll know I was wrong and your blaming social conservatives for low fertility rates was a sincere belief rather than a dig at redpillers who blame feminists.

Well, if I "left" I would just go back to lurking, and if I left in a huff I would be very silly to as I have been here long enough to know what the response to my beliefs will be and if I was not prepared for them I should not have made an account. I am quite sincere, but I understand your reasoning. I do, however, struggle to respond if people do not directly reply and can miss their responses, am not in the mood to respond to some posters, and sometimes forget if I look at a response on my phone and I'm interrupted.

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