site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34967 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 6, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I don't see how calling all women lying, indecisive, immature, unfunny children isn't misogyny, and more than calling all men sexually frustrated chimps isn't misandrist. The posters here may not hate me, yes, but as I said earlier, I believe when engaging with people who find you biologically inferior to them, the most charitable interpretation of your arguments will be with pity or amusement. If my argument is sound, it is not because my reasoning or logics are sound, but because putting a monkey in a room with a typewriter for an infinite amount of time will cause him to inevitable smash out the works of Shakespeare or, a broken clock is right twice a day, because I am a woman, and things like rationally arguing doesn't come naturally according to posters here, so I either learned it from a man or I have too much testosterone in my system. Not hate, yes, but certainly not a positive sentiment.

Do you have evidence that all men don't want to be with someone they respect earnestly? Because I disagree; I think all people want to be with someone that makes them happy, and being with someone you think will be unfaithful for no reason than their biology sound a bit paranoid and miserable to me.

I don't see how calling all women lying, indecisive, immature, unfunny children isn't misogyny, and more than calling all men sexually frustrated chimps isn't misandrist. The posters here may not hate me, yes, but as I said earlier, I believe when engaging with people who find you biologically inferior to them, the most charitable interpretation of your arguments will be with pity or amusement. If my argument is sound, it is not because my reasoning or logics are sound, but because putting a monkey in a room with a typewriter for an infinite amount of time will cause him to inevitable smash out the works of Shakespeare or, a broken clock is right twice a day, because I am a woman, and things like rationally arguing doesn't come naturally according to posters here, so I either learned it from a man or I have too much testosterone in my system. Not hate, yes, but certainly not a positive sentiment.

You continue to misunderstand me and I think it might be because you are conflating the replies of many different people in this thread here. Like women, us non-feminist men and women are not a monolith.

I am also not sure where you are getting that most people here think that women are incapable of reasoning. I would not be surprised if you found that kind of talk around here somewhere - people argue a lot of shit on the motte - but it certainly isn't a very widespread sentiment. We have quite a few very respected female posters here.

What I do think is that our society gives upper middle-class women a free pass for some extremely shitty behaviour that hence becomes normalised. Frankly, we are raising a lot of women to become raging narcissists with all the idiotic #grrrlllllpwrrrrr propaganda that is being blasted on all channels. Consequently, women will be displaying more of these undesirable traits in our Western societies. I also believe there are more male than female assholes in Iran, if that makes you happier.

I also believe that by and large, men and women are different, on average and with large overlaps, and that this difference doesn't stop at the neck. For example, there tends to be a lot more difference between stated and revealed preferences among women, at least when it comes to romantic and sexual preferences.

I am well aware that this makes me a miSogYniSt according to contemporary feminism. It doesn't mean I don't believe in equal opportunities for all. I certainly don't believe in the equalisation of outcomes for unequal effort, though.

Do you have evidence that all men don't want to be with someone they respect earnestly?

You are again substituting what you think respect is and should mean for what I think respect is and should mean - which I believe to be different for men and women. Also, your requests for evidence are an isolated demand for rigour. I could go and look for studies on how much men and women value assertiveness and ambition in their partners, for example. But that takes time and I am not sure it would convince you one bit. You'd have to show me the effort is worth it - I don't see you providing any data backing up your experiences either.

and being with someone you think will be unfaithful for no reason than their biology sound a bit paranoid and miserable to me.

Never said that. Read carefully.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats