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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   35049 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 6, 2023

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You are indeed trying to impose a social norm. A social norm against doing something is still a social norm after all.

Persuading people that there's no good reason to shame others for not doing something is not "imposing a social norm" under any reasonable definition of "imposing" or "social norm"

Using your own analogy, you are trying to convince Muslims that they do not have to recognize someone as Muslim.

Sure, I think I have a better argument then others do, and I'm trying to show that. On the flip side, I'm also trying to expose it to scrutiny,

Even though you recognize that your statement about rights is false

Stop. I don't. I recognize your argument as technically correct, in the "do words even mean anything" sense. I do not think your argument is in any way meaningful.

But here in this space we are supposed to avoid doing that.

No, I'm pretty sure we're allowed to make arguments. If you disagree, feel free to report me.

I recognize your argument as technically correct, in the "do words even mean anything" sense. I do not think your argument is in any way meaningful.

This doesn't make any sense. My argument isn't about whether words mean anything. It is that your statement was by your own admission incorrect. That's not irrelevant. It's not about "do words even mean anything". It's that your statement was actually factually false, and when I pointed that out and your responded yes, I assumed we were on the same page at least about that.

Again to be clear, I think there are good arguments for your position. But that a declaration that my rights start at x and yours end there, is a bad one because it is demonstrably untrue. Not in some relativist stance, but actually factually in the real world untrue. And that when you segued into talking about trying to persuade society that your rights should start at x, you were acknowledging that, because otherwise that position does not make any sense. If your rights do start at X, you wouldn't need to persuade society of it. It would already be.

I am not sure where the inferential gap is here. But if I was wrong that you were acknowledging that the first statement was a deliberate lie in the service to persuading readers here, then I do withdraw that objection and apologize for it.

Unless this is a simple is/ought issue? When you said "Your right to believe you're a cat ends at my right to not be forced to say "heeereee kitty, kitty, kitty!" when I see you." did you mean instead that "Your right to believe you're a cat SHOULD end at my right to not be forced..." but that you acknowledge it currently does not necessarily end there, hence why you need to persuade society of it?

This doesn't make any sense. My argument isn't about whether words mean anything. It is that your statement was by your own admission incorrect. That's not irrelevant. It's not about "do words even mean anything"

Again - stop. I never admitted that. I "admitted" it in the same way I'd "admit" you're right if I was discussing whether or the Matrix is an allegory for trans issues, and you jumped in with ultra-relativist Death Of The Author take. Death Of The Author is a vacuous meta-argument that is completely irrelevant to anything to a conversation like that, so saying "sure, I suppose things only mean what everyone agrees they mean. So I'm trying to get people to agree with my meaning, do you mind?" is not conceding my object level point, it's pointing out you're making an irrelevant meta point.

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