This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
So the other day, as I was accusing you of torturing the meaning of words, I also mentioned that I find your ideas interesting, and this would be a primary example of one of them. As much as I balk at the comparison, if not equivocation, between two sworn enemies, I can't shake the feeling you're pointing at something real, even as the details are lost in translation.
This would be an example of one such detail. Maybe I'm already missing the point by focusing on it, maybe it was just meant to be a generic example, but the issue I have here isn't even "no true scotsmaning", it's that he shoe does not fit. Unless some other group, like the ancaps, is being lumped in with the alt-right, I just don't see how you can call them Rousseauean. As far as I can tell, all their assumptions about human nature seem to fit in with yours. On the other hand, they do seem to have a utopian strain, is that what this is about?
This might be something close to the core of the matter. I've recently realized that as I've ran the circuit of various ideologies meant to fix the world, the thing that they have in common is the obsession with grand ideas. As I got tired of those, and started valuing tangible things I could actually do, even if they weren't grandiose, I started to ask around if there's any trash that needs picking up, only to be met with blank stares.
On the other hand, that would also mean many left-wing / progressive groups are more "right-wing" then it would seem at first glance.
I don't think you're wrong and will freely concede this as a point of disagreement. The problem becomes, what then?
Why so pessimistic? I'm not trying to find problems, just trying to process what you're saying through my lens, and curious if it's stills recognizable to you after being processed.
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link