site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   33354 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 27, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Being poor, uneducated and not independent is typically a sign of either laziness or low intelligence. Is that considered poor moral character?

Being poor, uneducated and not independent is typically a sign of either laziness or low intelligence.

Sure, in reality. But in the leftist model of how the world works? Being poor, uneducated and not independent is a sign that you're oppressed, and thus deserving.

maybe in a liberal model sure, but a leftist one i'd hard disagree there.

Sure at a societal level progressives seem to believe that but not at a personal level.

Being poor, uneducated and not independent is typically a sign of either laziness or low intelligence. Is that considered poor moral character?

Such a thing would have to assume that all outcomes are a result of the efforts of those individuals, and that there were no outside factors either giving them a significant boost, or holding back the people in the lower class. This pretty much were a lot of the debate lies. I dont know if there is a good answer. But i will say that simply believing that everyone who is poor and lacks a degree is a lazy bum is quite suspect as an explanation. Unless it could be proven otherwise.

Character is not determined by work ethic alone. And it is not fair. Neither is work ethic, one does not choose to have low conscientiousness. We live in a causal universe, all our outcomes were determined at the precise moment the universe came into being. Our society makes efforts to let people with merit not be held back by circumstances imposed by something other than merit, this is a good strategy because it helps us maximize global utility, but it's not fair. This is perhaps the strongest moral argument for something like "from each according to their abilities and to each according to their need". It is indeed a lie that anyone can be president, precisely one person per election can be and their victory was preordained by the uncaring forces of physics.

So on balance the question of character really does come down to "will a relationship with this person benefit me" and there are many to which the answer is no. We should probably do something about this as a society.

one does not choose to have low conscientiousness

Do you think that anyone chooses anything? Or are you arguing that having low conscientiousness is different from, say, having voted Green?

Well choice is an illusion and all that but as far as choices go scores on these traits seem stable and not like something that can be modified later in life the way that party affiliation can be. So they're meaningfully different in that sense. Society needs to treat conscientiousness as a choice because it makes the whole system run and justifies necessarily unequal outcomes, but that doesn't make it so.

scores on these traits seem stable and not like something that can be modified later in life the way that party affiliation can be

As far as I know, there is a genetic component, but conscientiousnes can be modified. Not as easily as how people vote, but not as impossible, like willing yourself to not have schizophrenia.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats