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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   33253 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 20, 2023

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you can't both hold the position that a nation has a right to exist, but also insist its borders must be maximally indefensible and that it cannot expand them (as all nations have done) following a successful defensive war

the maximally indefensible borders which they "defended"?

Because their opposition was a bunch of clowns.

Yes, those ones. Had they just hung tight and said, "well, surely that massed formation poses no threat to us, they are on their side of the border and can form up as they like", Israel would have been in quite the pickle. For those not familiar with the relevant context:

In the months prior to the outbreak of the Six-Day War in June 1967, tensions again became dangerously heightened: Israel reiterated its post-1956 position that another Egyptian closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping would be a definite casus belli. In May 1967, Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser announced that the Straits of Tiran would again be closed to Israeli vessels. He subsequently mobilized the Egyptian military along the border with Israel, and also ordered the immediate withdrawal of all UNEF personnel.[32][25]

Perhaps the pre-1967 borders would have been tenable with an internationally recognized demilitarized zone and UN guarantee of clear shipping lanes, but that isn't what was transpiring. Establishing a new, defensible border was a reasonable and normal reaction to the Arab offensive.

you cannot claim something is maximally indefensible when you successfully defend them

I think I addressed this objection, but to try to rephrase - the indefensibility of the borders put them in a position where the only feasible approach was a preemptive strike across those borders as a response to buildup and economic pressure. They could not have taken a strictly defensive posture from the prior position, which leads to an unstable equilibrium.

It is correct that it's not "maximally" indefensible though, granted, I'm sure we could draw borders that were even less defensible.

you cannot claim borders are "maximally indefensible" to the point where it contradicts any ability whatsoever to exist at all while doing just that

the indefensibility of the borders put them in a position where the only feasible approach was a preemptive strike across those border

that was the approach they took, that doesn't mean it was "the only feasible approach" and otherwise would have resulted in defeat, i.e., the inability to defend the "maximally indefensible" borders

edit: Israeli wants are simply relabeled as necessities

if you look at Palestine, their borders are more "indefensible" and yet that doesn't mean they get to claim by necessity to make their borders "defensible" otherwise you are denying their "right to exist"

you cannot claim borders are "maximally indefensible" to the point where it contradicts any ability whatsoever to exist at all while doing just that

Cool, that's why I didn't claim that and stated that the poster who did was incorrect. I'm glad we could come to an accord on the matter.

if you look at Palestine, their borders are more "indefensible" and yet that doesn't mean they get to claim by necessity to make their borders "defensible" otherwise you are denying their "right to exist"

Yeah, it does. Palestine is being denied a right to exist. It doesn't exist as a stable entity in any meaningful sense and a significant part of this is that it lacks a coherent, defensible border or the means to create and enforce such a border.

the means to create and enforce the border is what causes the "defensible" border, not the other way around

my comments are meant to point out things presented as necessities to exist are simply not

Palestine is being denied a right to exist

indeed

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