site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   33253 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 20, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

15
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

3/If you believe in authority of United Nations, then Israel was right 76 years ago and is wrong ever since then.

Well, we are hardly breaking ground with this thought, but the UN's position is schizophrenic. You can't both hold the position that a nation has a right to exist, but also insist its borders must be maximally indefensible and that it cannot expand them (as all nations have done) following a successful defensive war.

you can't both hold the position that a nation has a right to exist, but also insist its borders must be maximally indefensible and that it cannot expand them (as all nations have done) following a successful defensive war

the maximally indefensible borders which they "defended"?

Because their opposition was a bunch of clowns.

Yes, those ones. Had they just hung tight and said, "well, surely that massed formation poses no threat to us, they are on their side of the border and can form up as they like", Israel would have been in quite the pickle. For those not familiar with the relevant context:

In the months prior to the outbreak of the Six-Day War in June 1967, tensions again became dangerously heightened: Israel reiterated its post-1956 position that another Egyptian closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping would be a definite casus belli. In May 1967, Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser announced that the Straits of Tiran would again be closed to Israeli vessels. He subsequently mobilized the Egyptian military along the border with Israel, and also ordered the immediate withdrawal of all UNEF personnel.[32][25]

Perhaps the pre-1967 borders would have been tenable with an internationally recognized demilitarized zone and UN guarantee of clear shipping lanes, but that isn't what was transpiring. Establishing a new, defensible border was a reasonable and normal reaction to the Arab offensive.

you cannot claim something is maximally indefensible when you successfully defend them

I think I addressed this objection, but to try to rephrase - the indefensibility of the borders put them in a position where the only feasible approach was a preemptive strike across those borders as a response to buildup and economic pressure. They could not have taken a strictly defensive posture from the prior position, which leads to an unstable equilibrium.

It is correct that it's not "maximally" indefensible though, granted, I'm sure we could draw borders that were even less defensible.

you cannot claim borders are "maximally indefensible" to the point where it contradicts any ability whatsoever to exist at all while doing just that

the indefensibility of the borders put them in a position where the only feasible approach was a preemptive strike across those border

that was the approach they took, that doesn't mean it was "the only feasible approach" and otherwise would have resulted in defeat, i.e., the inability to defend the "maximally indefensible" borders

edit: Israeli wants are simply relabeled as necessities

if you look at Palestine, their borders are more "indefensible" and yet that doesn't mean they get to claim by necessity to make their borders "defensible" otherwise you are denying their "right to exist"

you cannot claim borders are "maximally indefensible" to the point where it contradicts any ability whatsoever to exist at all while doing just that

Cool, that's why I didn't claim that and stated that the poster who did was incorrect. I'm glad we could come to an accord on the matter.

if you look at Palestine, their borders are more "indefensible" and yet that doesn't mean they get to claim by necessity to make their borders "defensible" otherwise you are denying their "right to exist"

Yeah, it does. Palestine is being denied a right to exist. It doesn't exist as a stable entity in any meaningful sense and a significant part of this is that it lacks a coherent, defensible border or the means to create and enforce such a border.

the means to create and enforce the border is what causes the "defensible" border, not the other way around

my comments are meant to point out things presented as necessities to exist are simply not

Palestine is being denied a right to exist

indeed

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats