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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   32402 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 23, 2023

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Do you see some creepy aspect in the story about American Evangelicals spreading their views on homosexuality in Ghana? Or is your only problem with it that you disagree with them?

The second one.

Oh. Then we have a fundamental value difference. I'm not sure how far we're going to get in this conversation with that in the way. I can only gesture wildly hoping you will understand whether I'm talking about my finger, or the thing it's point at.

Here's another one. Have you read the "Samsara" short story by Scott? What's your take on it?

To me it's cosmic horror. I shudder at the thought there's someone out there that could describe such evil acts in such a lighthearted way. The only way I can consider Scott not-quite-past-redemption is to tell myself it's meant as a Halloween story, and was posted a few days late.

I'm curious how you think this compromise works. It seems like your perception of it entails that, since the sodomy law is repealed, nobody is ever allowed to argue for the legalization of gay marriage for all time.

Not for all time, but wait at least a generation or two. The other issue is the "nobody", like I said I think Singaporeans can make whatever decisions they want, I take issue with people conspiring to change their mind.

I think there are many relevant moral differences between states and individuals and between state policies and individual preferences that make this comparison inapt.

There certainly are differences, but none that I can see that are relevant to our conversation, or the argument I'm making.

If the conspiracy doesn't involve means or ends that I think are objectionable I struggle to see why I should object to its existence.

In this thread I'm mostly interested in the question of the conspiracy's existence. A lot these are very frustrating for people in my position, because over the long term, people who are opposed to my views end up adopting a "that's not happening, and it's a good thing that it is" stance. If we can agree that it's happening I'm already mostly happy.

How would you even stop this? Should Singapore not be allowed to participate in the global internet, because maybe they'd see things that would change their views on LGBT people?

No to the latter. Like I said, it's up to Singaporeans to decide what decision they want to make, in this case it also means they decide what measures to take. If they want to be on the Internet, they can. If they want to censor it, it's also their right. I'm just against international elites conspiring to get them to change their mind.

I don't understand why "convince" is in scare quotes, what methods were employed that aren't covered by that label?

What do you think about peer pressure? Cults? Using PUA mind-tricks to get a woman to say "yes" to sex, so it's technically with consent? None of these can ever count as coercion?

To me it's cosmic horror. I shudder at the thought there's someone out there that could describe such evil acts in such a lighthearted way. The only way I can consider Scott not-quite-past-redemption is to tell myself it's meant as a Halloween story, and was posted a few days late.

I think some of the tactics employed to try and convince the protagonist are impermissibly coercive, but otherwise am not seeing what evil acts are being described.

Not for all time, but wait at least a generation or two. The other issue is the "nobody", like I said I think Singaporeans can make whatever decisions they want, I take issue with people conspiring to change their mind.

Maybe this is another value difference. I do not see what is wrong with trying to change people's minds.

There certainly are differences, but none that I can see that are relevant to our conversation, or the argument I'm making.

I feel like one obvious difference is that state policies are coercive on other individuals in a way my neighbors preferences are not. Like, we're talking about legal coercion and punishment. That seems quite different to my neighbor having a preference for certain kinds of sex. Indeed, if my neighbors preference for sex involved coercing others (i.e. rape) I think it would become my business, in the same way the states coercion of individuals under the guise of the criminal law is my business. In a similar vein I think my values are universal. They are not just good for me, they are good simpliciter. My own values tell me there are impermissible ways of getting people to live according to my values (such as by coercion) but convincing people to have similar values to me is just good, in itself.

In this thread I'm mostly interested in the question of the conspiracy's existence. A lot these are very frustrating for people in my position, because over the long term, people who are opposed to my views end up adopting a "that's not happening, and it's a good thing that it is" stance. If we can agree that it's happening I'm already mostly happy.

Fair enough! I think the "pro-spiracy" others have mentioned is probably a better conception. There are people in powerful positions that share a certain set of values and want others to also share those values. I'm not sure how much is literal conspiracy (surely some) but I think the pro-spiracy aspect is the dominant one.

What do you think about peer pressure? Cults? Using PUA mind-tricks to get a woman to say "yes" to sex, so it's technically with consent? None of these can ever count as coercion?

I do think these things can be impermissibly coercive, but I'm going to need some evidence that this is what actually happened in particular cases.

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