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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31444 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 16, 2023

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I'm not particularly "emotional" about it. I'm just stating things in blunt terms because that leaves less room to waffle. I don't see the right to punch my wife in the face as an inviolable personal liberty, and you apparently think it's an intolerable infringement of state power that a man can be arrested for that.

I mean the constant appeals to the image of a woman being raped and beaten in front of you. It's like bringing up a starving child in a discussion on food security, it's a bit cheap, exploitation movie, less autistic than usual for this place.

But the reason I keep bringing it up is because those are the logical implications that you don't want to pursue. If we were talking about food security and someone was proposing policies that would, in fact, result in starving children, it would not be cheap or exploitative to ask if the other person has considered this and is really willing to stand by it. You want to talk in abstract terms about the "marital contract" and "implied consent" and you keep insisting that "back in the days of our ancestors they didn't need the state interfering with private marital relationships." If that is really how you feel, fair enough, but to be clear, yes, you're saying you're fine with spouses being beaten and raped, and you don't think the law should intervene. That's not some edge case or hypothetical.

In my scenario, she is also not beaten and raped. Husband is confused by the refusal, she divorces if he persists, everyone lives happily ever after. Unless I guess she wants to continue, in which case, I bow to her will.

The guy who shows up in the food security discussion and accuses his opponents of wanting starving children is a terrible debater, and there's millions of them on reddit.

In my scenario, she is also not beaten and raped. Husband is confused by the refusal, she divorces if he persists, everyone lives happily ever after. Unless I guess she wants to continue, in which case, I bow to her will.

Your scenario assumes reasonable, non-abusive people. What about the scenario where the husband does not back off, confused, but decides to use force? I don't know why you keep insisting "But you see, your lurid scenario wouldn't happen because in my world, people don't do that."

The guy who shows up in the food security discussion and accuses his opponents of wanting starving children is a terrible debater, and there's millions of them on reddit.

Yeah, but that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is you're saying "I propose policy X," and I say "Policy X will have a predictable consequence Y, is that really what you're in favor of?" And you respond with "Why do you keep bringing up Y?! That's cheap and exploitative!"

Okay, let's assume the husband is the absolute worst, and the wife is wonderful. DIVORCE is the end of that scenario in my argument, not beatings and rapes. For you it's JAIL, and this apparently means we have completely incompatible moralities, and I'm responsible for rapes somehow. Yet the same number of rapes happened in both scenarios.

Okay, let's assume the husband is the absolute worst, and the wife is wonderful. DIVORCE is the end of that scenario in my argument, not beatings and rapes.

Yes, that would be ideal.

For you it's JAIL,

If he beats or rapes her, yes. That's usually how it works - except, apparently, under your morality, if you're married to the victim.

and this apparently means we have completely incompatible moralities, and I'm responsible for rapes somehow.

I never accused you of being responsible for rapes. Now who is using cheap, exploitative arguments?

You said I was in favour of rape/assault, an argument frequently lobbied at anyone who advocates the least draconian punishment in any justice debate. I think our disagreement is over a legal technicality, not morality. It's been overall civil, so have a nice day.

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