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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31624 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 9, 2023

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What? No. Sovereignity is specifically about the control you have over the territory. Pride is more about keeping face.

And you would want your country to be hegemon over some clay because...?

Because they don't want to be Putin's slaves?

Because (and when) I can be sure that the current government will treat me better than the other guys.

The other guys marching in with tanks and artillery seems to make people less assured that they'd be better than the current government.

Because (and when) I can be sure that the current government will treat me better than the other guys.

This sounds like remarkably similar logic to Russians wanting to rescue their own submariners than having other countries do it for them.

No, I don't think the logic of the commanders there was "we want to do it ourselves because the foreigners will bungle it and lose our boys to the sea". It looks more like "we want to do it ourselves because if we accept aid then we'll lose face".

Not to mention, of course, that the Russian command did bungle it.

Not to mention, of course, that the Russian command did bungle it.

And also accepted foreign aid. With gems such as

transcript revealed that Putin told the families that Admiral of the Fleet Vladimir Kuroyedov had agreed to accept foreign assistance as soon as it was offered on Wednesday, 16 August, but he was shouted down as soon as he offered this explanation. The family members knew from media reports that foreign assistance had been offered on Monday.

and

Six teams of British and Norwegian divers arrived on Friday, 18 August. (...) When the divers attempted to open the air-control valve, it would not move. Russian experts told the divers that they must open the valve anticlockwise, or they would break it. The divers finally went against the experts' advice and tried turning it clockwise, which worked.

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster )

It was bungled, but I'm skeptical face played any part in that calculation. Doesn't the rationalization "the lives of 10 sailors is worth our nuclear submarine secrets" have enough explanatory power?

No, I don't think the logic of the commanders there was "we want to do it ourselves because the foreigners will bungle it and lose our boys to the sea".

And I don't think the logic of Ukrainian men at the front line is "We defend our land with all our hearts!", either; I think it's more likely to do with the law that makes it illegal for them to leave, and the probabiloty of getting tarred and feathered across global media for 'cowardice' by their Americo-Euromaidan regime commissars. That's the thing about making "WELL I THINK THAT" assertions: the interlocutor can just-so right back at you.

Not to mention, of course, that the Russian command did bungle it.

Yeah, but they didn't know they'd bungle it when they started. Hindsight is 20:20.

Yeah, but they didn't know they'd bungle it when they started. Hindsight is 20:20.

With their handling hindsight was not needed.

On Sunday, after Popov already knew that Kursk was missing and presumed sunk, he briefed reporters on the progress of the naval exercise. He said the exercise had been a resounding success and spoke highly of the entire operation.

(...)

On the afternoon of the explosion, before the Kremlin had been informed of the submarine's sinking, U.S. National Security Adviser Sandy Berger and Defense Secretary William Cohen were told that Kursk had sunk.

(...)

The first official announcement of the accident was made by the Russians on Monday, 14 August. They told the media that Kursk had had "minor technical difficulties" on Sunday. They stated that the submarine had "descended to the ocean floor", that they had established contact with the crew and were pumping air and power to the boat, and that "everyone on board is alive."

(everyone was dead on 12 August, some sailors survived about 6 hours )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster

No doubt many Ukrainians have no heart in it. However, from my observation of the discourse in Russo-Ukrainian spheres, I must assume that a significant portion really does have the heart in it. I've never observed anything about the kind of people who make high-level decisions on the Kursk submarine that would suggest they are capable of any sort of mortal conviction.

They didn't care if they'd bungle it. Because the lives of rank-and-file Russians are always expendable, and do not even come into the equation as a factor. The pride of some Russian general/admiral, who would feel bad if he'd have to ask the hated foreigners for help, does though - in fact, it is the whole equation.

And I don't think the logic of Ukrainian men at the front line is "We defend our land with all our hearts!"

You think wrong. Probably too much reading of bad translations of Russian war propaganda, that is popular in certain right-wing circles, which think if it is not American government propaganda, then it must be the holy truth.

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