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I'm skeptical I could make any argument along these lines that would impress you. I'm doubtful that my comments that are critical of the left or wokeness are any more incisive or insightful, but they never draw the same accusations, so /shrug. Most top level posts are naked culture warring cutting the other way that again, never draw this objection. To some extent accusations of being a shallow culture warrior is just table stakes for participating in this community regardless of how careful I am. If I truly took all Your (not you personally, the royal You) criticism to heart I would never say anything, and indeed, I delete half my abortive comments without them seeing the light of day. Maybe you'd like that better. I suppose if I got enough replies like yours I'd stop writing long before I became Darwin 2.0, but at least some people seem to find the discussion useful.
Anyways - many of you are taking this as some value judgment. That I'm trying to say 'This is why I'm a blue blooded Democrat damnit, because those dumb-dumb Republicans can't come up with a vision beyond robbing the poor and cutting taxes on the 1%.' Rather, I'm trying to make an argument along these lines although no doubt much less skillfully. I'm also trying to leave an opening for people to tell me I'm misunderstanding the problem, that this is the vision being articulated by so-and-so and I've just never encountered it, or that I'm typical-minding half the country who don't respond to the same incentives I do. I've gotten precious little of the former, maybe half the replies are the latter, and half the comments make me think I'm right and reinforce my belief.
All I can offer is to do my utmost to give your perspective a fair shake.
Think the flak is on target, personally.
More effort than this, please.
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Alright, thanks for the feedback.
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Would you take any such argument seriously? Because it's kinda hard to treat 'we're going to keep things the way they are/turn back the clock to the 1970s/1950s/1776!' from the guy who's gone whole-hog on "Do you want to drive over to my apartment and put a bullet in my head, or set off a bomb at my workplace?" as someone who would.
((Even for this specific case. It's not like libertarians and the Gray Tribe haven't had long arguments over the scope of 'dangerous' or dangerous public information!))
It's not like it's hard to find! There's a (not unreasonable!) reputation for libertarians specifically being seen as the exact class of people being skewered by the "world if X got their way" meme, where small or inconsequential policy changes are supposed to lead to tremendous unrelated benefits, but it's not like this is a thing limited to Reason. Even on the specific matter of the gender culture wars, it's not like the positive vision from social conservatives is something that requires a microscope to find, as much as I disagree with it.
I'll note that this, likewise, doesn't look like an unusually Positive Vision -- indeed, even if Scott hides it, I'd argue it's more 'turn back the clock' than a lot of mainstream conservative ones! -- so much as a vision you don't disagree with. Which is part of why stamping out whether you actually want what you're asking for, rather than Policies You'd Like, is important as a first step.
((And, uh, your tendency to ghost.))
People should be able to leave conversations for any reason at all, including no reason. Posting is not a job. I don't think giving people flak for "ghosting" helps foster a healthy community.
I don't think people owe responses in the general case. I think situations like the post, where there is charitably only one response that pretends to minimally engage with the serious criticisms of a controversial top-level post, out of many that instead try to incorrectly nitpick or simply joke, however, are far more unhealthy.
(I'm assuming you're saying "ChrisPrattAlphaRaptr made a crappy post, people called ChrisPrattAlphaRaptr on it, and ChrisPrattAlphaRaptr didn't engage with them".) I think the sin there is making the crappy post, not failing to engage.
For the record, I wrote 30,000 some odd words about that post and related topics with gattsuru already, hence my frustration at being told I'm guilty of ghosting. I was banned for a day and then took a month or two off from writing anything on the sub after that.
I've since also written 30,000 odd words in multiple conversations with FCfromSSC that you could dig up if you're so inclined. I don't think the other two people I specifically called out would be particularly interested in doing the same, but if they really want to rehash it, I'm willing.
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No, I don't think that post (or even this thread!) are crappy. I think they're controversial. Which isn't a sin: the last thing we need is a forum full of 'so controversial yet so brave' that's specifically not.
It's very specifically not supporting them, or bringing false support and then neither changing your mind nor finding better facts, that risk turning into unintentional self-weakman.
"Jim Crow laws were great and we need to bring them back" is definitely controversial and brave take, even on this wokeness negative and HBDIQ science positive forum, but the poster was just banned ;-(
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I often leave some replies un-replied-to because I can't think of anything good to say--which is technically within the theme of this forum, so.
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I've never known CPAR to ghost. Pretty sure I owe him a whole bunch of replies, and he owes me none.
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Of course not, I'm just a mindless Pelosi-bot regurgitating whatever normie talking-points the NYT and George Soros tell me to.
I don't see why those two are incongruent. The spirit of '76 is practically synonymous with civil war/violent revolution/boogie boys in some parts.
As for the actual violent rhetoric, it seems to have quieted down a bit. Particularly here, but I also think in the broader political arena.
So, if I'm understanding correctly, you're upset at the drive-by about 'libertarians slinking away' from Musk when 90% of the post was about conservatives? Okay. For all my very limited criticism of libertarians, I think they do have a fairly grand vision for the future. A Randian utopia where personal freedoms allow the ubermensch to throw off their shackles and accomplish wonders. I don't see this much on the right these days; they seem to want just as much government regulation and interference as the left does.
Hardly. I used that as an example of Scott giving commentary or advice to Republicans, not necessarily the object level arguments themselves. I'm trying to express that my intention wasn't to put down conservatives but rather to point out a real deficit in their platform, and that I think filling it in would benefit the entire country regardless of political affiliation. Perhaps my position in this community just precludes me from making that argument, or I just don't have the chops. Who knows.
I'm sure you have some lovingly nursed examples ready-at-hand, but regardless, this one misses the mark. I've written a novella-sized series of replies to your previous objections, 2-3 novellas to FC, another few for professorgerm, others that I can't remember at the moment. When I get 10 replies to something I write I just physically can't give all 10 an effortpost, and if I did anything less, you'd be sitting there smugly accusing me of low-effort posting.
Other times, I find people offensive or off-putting enough that I leave the conversation rather than say something that would get me banned. As you already know, I'm not particularly intelligent; you should add thin-skinned and poor impulse control to your list, and laud me for knowing when to leave the conversation rather than writing something that would get me banned.
I get that this is intended as a self-deprecating joke, but it's the sort of joking-not-joking that reads like it's also yes.jpg.
That's a bit of a weird contrast with the other examples, but ok.
No. My objections are that:
There are a number of Grand Positive Visions on the general 'right', with the libertarian ones being the most-generally-known and most-generally-critiqued. (And the Big Head Press comics are particularly goofy about it: the setting features sapient dolphins and apes partly for the gonzo effect, and partly because of course libertarians would recognize sapience, right?)
There's a lot of Grand Positive Visions from specifically social- or Trumpist conservatives, for better ( some of the saner socons even if I disagree with their policy goals, some of the economic conservatives) or worse (MAGA isn't just an acronym, David French, the obnoxious Common Good Conservativism). As I point out in one of the lines just after that aside, that "Even on the specific matter of the gender culture wars, it's not like the positive vision from social conservatives is something that requires a microscope to find, as much as I disagree with it."
If your critique is that these Grand Positive Visions aren't presented often in the Culture War Thread, it's probably worth considering if that's a result of the limitations of the medium.
Even within those limits of the medium, I don't think extrapolating from posters responding to a top-level comment clearly trying to evoke sympathy for their political enemies under norms they've never avowed is going to be a particularly good place to go hunting for examples of grand positive vision...
And I think that an emphasis you've selected -- "vibe you get" from "conservatives here", selected from the posts you read -- leaves far too many degrees of freedom. Not because I think WhiningCoil specifically spends a lot of wordcount on positive vision (even if you could steelman one), but because "They're supporting the downtrodden in society and giving them a chance to improve their lives. Contrary to the conflict theorists, it's neither arbitrary nor intended to make 'disfavored groups' suffer." becomes so wide you could drive a truck through it, in the same way that someone here on the right trying to turn the various 'waiting/hoping for cis white guys to die off' memes into some utter damnation of the progressive movement is missing a lot of what's happening.
It's neither. This is either getting lost in the gaps between our cultures, or the speech-to-text nature of the internet so I'll be blunt. It's me saying you're being a jerk, and Go Away.
Remarkably, when I complain about SJWs my writing drastically improves, my arguments are unassailable and we're all great friends. If I'm writing about immigration, guns or other touchy subjects, you pop up with a list of standards that the majority of top-level posts, let alone replies, come nowhere near meeting. Yet you never seem particularly upset with much more inflammatory and low-effort right-wing takes.
I've tried to keep an open mind and I appreciate the breadth of your knowledge, but frankly, the criticism isn't constructive anymore (if it ever was) and I don't enjoy the back and forth at this point. Gonna have to do what I do and ghost after this.
I'd argue that there were, but that times they have a'changed over the last 6 years. Trump was as profligate as the democrats and aligned more with them on i.e. covid relief welfare than his party to great acclaim from his base. The Tea Party is a joke, mostly revealed as a means to stymie Obama's legislative agenda rather than any real desire amongst conservatives to reduce spending. Libertarian and evangelical Christian ideals don't hold the same pull they once did, the Republican party is in flux, and a new vision has yet to emerge. Like...David French having a vision widespread among modern conservatives? The guy who writes in support of prosecuting Trump and how Trumpism has been a disaster for the American evangelical? When's the last time Breitbart or Fox News were meaningfully influenced by any of the ideologies you mentioned? I'm sure there are many Christians on the right, but to suggest that Christian morals is the animus of the modern conservative just isn't true anymore.
Ah, yes, because my entire argument was based on that one comment thread. Speaking of limitations of that medium.
I do that to 1) try and be less inflammatory because clearly it's a touchy subject and 2) because if I didn't couch my argument in 'I thinks' and 'vibes' you'd be ranting about how ridiculous it is that I have so much confidence in such a stupid argument with no citations. You'll be critical whichever choice I make short of just not writing anything, so why should I engage?
He got 40 upvotes for saying that he has no morals anymore. I think we can drop the ridiculous charade that anyone is upvoting based on post quality rather than what they agree with, so it's frankly hilarious and pathetic that so many of you agree with that. And it's not even like that's the only example I could dig up! You're trying to avoid confronting that fact by prevaricating about the medium, or I'm looking in the wrong place, or scare quotes around 'vibes' and 'conservatives around here.'
... you're complaining about 'scare quotes' when I was literally pointing to your own words, in this very thread. Is the problem that I should have ignored the grammar problems and just taken the full "that's the vibe I get from most of the conservatives here" directly?
So be it.
As you wish.
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It would, I'm just skeptical that this is the case. I doubt those 40 people feel as strongly as OP did, but they're sympathetic to someone literally saying they're so angry about politics that they have no morals left. Which...concerns me.
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There are two kinds of libertarian utopias.
One promises world of peace, freedom, prosperity and progress beyond our imagination, the other promises ... other things.
"Of course there will be no poverty and homelessness in libertarian society! All these problems are caused by socialism, true free market economy will create such universal abundance that even for few hours of lowest paid work you can afford to live like multi millionaires of today!"
"Of course there will be no poverty and homelessness in libertarian society, because all poor and homeless will be, hahaha, PHYSICALLY REMOVED! Where? Do not ask, if you do not want to join the ride!"
edit: link to web archive fixed
Thanks! I'd never seen that comic before, I'll take a look.
Interesting, I'm not sure I've ever come across this one.
The "physical removal" theme is unfortunately common among the Hans-Hermann Hoppe set.
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