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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   29717 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 12, 2022

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A theory far more likely to be true than the idea he caused $10M worth of damages per person affected, given the evidence

Because you are privy to all the evidence? If you have a link to all the evidence that was presented to the jury, I would like to see it.

But people think it was a good or bad idea. If you follow the conversation more closely, you might notice I was asking someone who expressed it's a good thing, to explain his reasoning.

You said: "There's plenty of extreme lies going around, and hardly any of them command such a high price. What does make this particular one cost so much? Is there any evidence it was arrived at through principles, rather than after the fact because people don't like Alex Jones?" What is the "it" that was "arrived at" in "this particular case" if not the verdict?

Because you are privy to all the evidence?

Wait, are you implying there is anything unreasonable about this possibility?

You said: "There's plenty of extreme lies going around, and hardly any of them command such a high price. What does make this particular one cost so much? Is there any evidence it was arrived at through principles, rather than after the fact because people don't like Alex Jones?" What is the "it" that was "arrived at" in "this particular case" if not the verdict?

Yes, it was referring to the verdict. Are you missing the sentence where I said "But people think it was a good or bad idea."?

Then, as I said:

"People" did not return the verdict in question; jurors did. A jury in CT and jury in TX, both of which were chosen after lengthy voir dire, and both of which were given a set of principles (i.e., jury instructions) to use when making their decisions. I would suggest that that places the burden on you to show that the verdict was arrived at because those particular jurors don't like Alex Jones.

If you have special access to the evidence that the rest of us don't, then you should easily be able to present it, along with the jury instructions, and make an argument (as opposed to the bald claim, based on nothing, that you have already made) that the evidence does not support the verdict and hence that the jurors were motivated by hostility to Jones. But, of course, you don't have that access; if you did, you would have presented it by now. You appear to merely be claiming that the outcome is "unfair' or "fixed' merely because your side lost.

Then, as I said:

"People" did not return the verdict in question; jurors did

That doesn't respond to my point. Even if people in general are not the ones to return a verdict, they can still discuss whether or not it could result through application of principles, or whether it was arbitrary.

if you did, you would have presented it by now

Not quite. You see, there is a tendency on this forum for "rational"/"adults in the room" types to frame the discussion in such a way, where they can act as if they are right by default, and demand that the other side provides all the evidence. To be fair, I understand that completely, I do it far more often than I would like (and I mean pro-actively, not just as a defense against it being done to me, like in this conversation. Pardon! I actually did it here as well, but to Smok, not to you!). For anyone who grew up in New Atheism, Skepticism, or Rationalism it will be a matter of habit, it's the easiest way to not be wrong after all. But I think that this is no way to have an honest conversation. If you hold a position on an issue, I think fairness demands that you state it, show your evidence for it, and let the other side poke holes in it as well.

The stance of pure criticism should only be allowed either if it comes from genuine curiosity, or if it is to show a statement made by the other side was clearly false. "There is not enough evidence to conclude X" is not conducive to rational debate, and should be discouraged.

But, of course, you don't have that access;

Now that's a positive claim! I'm happy to address it: are you aware that the entire trial was live streamed?

Yes, people in general can still discussed whether or not it could result through application of principles, or whether it was arbitrary. I never said otherwise. Rather, I took issue with your claim that the burden of proof lies with those who think that the verdict was NOT the result of anti-Jones bias, rather thanwith you. More specifically, if you claim that the evidence before the jury was such that the burden has shifted to those who disagree with you, it is incumbent upon you to clearly and completely state what that evidence was, and why you think it supports your position.

Well, I tried. If you managed to read my comment to mean I want to put all the burden of proof on you, I think it's best if we move on.

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