This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I think you and I mean different things by "to pass".
For me in that context, it means that a stranger is subconsciously inserting you into their mental categories of "men" or "women". If I were to go into a communal shower and saw a person of average statue with no facial hair, developed breasts and no dick and balls, I would place them in the category "women" -- and wonder if I am in the wrong shower.
The other interpretation of "to pass" is more adversarial. Something like "a stranger whose prior on you being trans is 0.5 will categorize you either as a cis-woman or a trans-woman following a close-up inspection of your naked body".
I would argue that for the shower situation, to pass in the first sense is sufficient. The prior of someone being trans IRL is low. If you see a cock in the woman's shower, that is certainly enough evidence to overcome the prior of "random person in the woman's shower is typical XX". But if someone is trying to pass to the point where they had bottom surgery, in most cases I would expect the subconsciousness to just put them in the "women" category.
I don't know what goes on in women's showers, obviously, but "excuse me, but can you stand still for a minute while I inspect your labia to determine if you are one of us or one of these god-awful pervert men who likes to spy on and/or rape women, (and in your case might have cut off his genitals to better to better hide among us)" is not a level of scrutiny I would expect in practice a lot.
Serious question: have you known any trans people personally? I used to work with an FtM and not all the testosterone jabs and clipped hair in the world makes up for being 5 foot 4 max and having a voice like a flute. There’s also just the fact that the body shape is wrong, the movements are wrong. After only a few moments your brain is screaming at you, “This person is not what they say they are.” That’s why it’s so insulting and damaging to be forced to ignore the evidence of your own eyes.
More options
Context Copy link
Nobody would need to do labia inspections because every woman in that shower would already know what this person's sex is - and they would know because even with the absence of a penis and testicles, the trans individual is still not 'passing'. The womens' subconscious is still tagging them as 'transwoman' or 'man'.
I've only ever seen 'passing' used in the sense of 'unable to notice the difference'. Dylan Mulvaney doesn't pass, even if we limit our focus to their top half and not even bother with genitals. Now, if you put him on a magazine cover, apply makeup, get the angles right, and have a professional photoshoot, then in that small instance they may pass. It will produce a still image that activists will smugly forward to your attention while saying "ppl saying Dylan doesnt pass should take another look" or "she looks more feminine than 90% of the women I know fr fr". Since I have to admit that yeah, they do look like an actual woman, I get tasty egg all over my face.
And then I say "Very interesting! Big pass! Now take their clothes off and see how well this illusion holds up. Actually, just put them in a real-world interaction where you could watch them move and listen to them talk. You will pick up on how non-passing they are well before anybody needs to take their pants off. Because this trick only works with a static JPG and a truckload of cosmetics that will wash off in the shower."
Many people seem to believe that transwomens' looks are largely indistinguishable from those of unattractive or 'unfortunate'-looking women, especially when the eyeliner, lip gloss, and powder are removed. But this has not been my experience - I can distinguish between ugly or odd women from the men dressing up and/or acting like a woman. I have a strong intuition that my subconscious is playing a role in noticing the differences, and it won't be fooled. My subconscious categorization of transwomen is still 'men', and I think the biological women in the shower have the same software as I.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link