This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Many Ukrainian weapons are Russian-produced, and consumables like missiles aren't always re-marked. Russia produces the S-300 series of anti-air missiles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system
We don't yet know for certain what it was, but proving the missile is of Russian manufacture still doesn't prove who fired it. OTOH, if you look at a map of the conflict in Ukraine, you might note how far it all is from Poland. The main front line now running up the Dnieper and Donetsk is roughly a thousand kilometers from the nearest point on the Polish border. The max ballistic range of a S-300 is forty klicks, and if it's the latest and greatest, an air range of 200 klicks. Simply put, if this was a S-300, it's almost certainly Ukrainian or Belarussian. The Russians aren't close enough to Poland.
If it wasn't a repurposed AA missile, but a longer range ballistic missile, it will be clear from the investigation, and if it was fired from Russia, there's no chance it was mistake. You don't miss by a thousand kilometers on accident and hit a non-belligerent country.
It does look like it was most likely a Ukie missile that went astray, but why do you keep telling everyone where the front lines are? Russia has been bombarding targets across Ukraine for over a month now, I don't think anyone thinks this missile was targeted at the front lines and flew right over them, more that it was targeted at a power plant in Western Ukraine.
1: If the missile is as reported, a S-300 AA rocket, it has a maximum flight range of 200km
2: Russian AA has to be behind their front line.
3: The front line is 1,000km minimum from Poland.
4: Ergo, there is no physical way that particular rocket could have made it to Poland from any Russian position. It would have to have been fired within 200km of the Polish border, probably much closer. Which means Ukranian or Belorussian, not Russian.
Think of it this way: if a guy in Chicago gets shot with a 9mm slug from a handgun, it probably wasn't fired from Detroit. We can rule Detroit out as a source of the gunshot, because bullets don't travel that far. We can use the maximum range of the projectile to measure the radius from the impact point where it could have originated, and this can eliminate a lot of potential sources.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link