This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Taking that to the logical conclusion, we shouldn't be able to deport immigrants for anything whatsoever, since that would be unequal treatment that is analogous to treating the Devil unequally.
The Devil must be punished not for being the Devil, but for the crimes he's committed that break the law.
Note that illegal immigrants have already broken the law and are usually the group that is the target of deportation, not legal immigrants.
The quote doesn't really address the question of if the degree of punishment can or should differ between categorically different individuals. One could argue that the law should treat everyone equally, but in reality punishment for law is different depending on the individual e.g. children vs adults. Similarly, a citizen and a permanent resident are not equivalent, and a citizen and an illegal immigrant even less so.
But this isn't talking about a criminal thing. Congress has the right to set immigration policy and has vested discretion in the Executive on who to admit and whether to revoke that admission.
It seems punitive, sure, and maybe it is in practice, but "we have a choice which foreigners we award visas" is the the same as "we punish those we don't select".
I'm not sure what your point is. By "this" are you referring to the quote or to Chung's situation? Does the justification for deportation not have any basis on law and crime, and if there isn't is there no attempt to make it so?
Same in what aspect? If I give Kid A a candy for acing his test but don't give Kid B anything because he failed it, is that punishing Kid B?
"This" here refers to the status of non-citizens. It's not a criminal matter.
I think you are confusing "law" more generally with a subset of it which is "criminal law". And in this case, the law is not criminal in nature, and it vests in the Executive discretion to award and revoke different statuses within the US according to certain processes, none of which involve a criminal trial (like, with charges and a jury). Some of it involves different kinds of judicial review (a good thing).
Okay, I see your point. So you are just clarifying that the act of revoking a visa or permanent residency status is not a matter of criminal law.
But if a non-citizen commits a crime, and as a result gets deported due to the crime, is that not in a way punishment for committing said crime? An additional punishment granted to a non-citizen that would not be granted to a citizen?
Conceptually I absolutely don’t think about it that way, I think a non-citizen commits a crime and they get whatever the actual penalty is such as jail time. In addition, committing a crime makes them no longer admissible within the United States, and as a civil matter they have to leave.
Of course, if they then don’t leave when they were mandated to that is an additional criminal immigration offense.
I get your perspective and I agree with your assessment, but it doesn't really change how I view it, since I wasn't making any statements about criminal vs civil law to begin with, and if it does come off that way, that was not my intention.
This does jog some memory of the stuff I learned in a really basic law course back in my college days, so thanks for that.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link