Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.
- 105
- 3
What is this place?
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
If in doubt, please post it!
Rules
- Courtesy
- Content
- Engagement
- When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
- Proactively provide evidence in proportion to how partisan and inflammatory your claim might be.
- Accept temporary bans as a time-out, and don't attempt to rejoin the conversation until it's lifted.
- Don't attempt to build consensus or enforce ideological conformity.
- Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
- The Wildcard Rule
- The Metarule
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
That’s a fun fan theory! Another one I like for science fiction settings that don’t have advanced AI / automation is that there’s some kind of in-universe lower bound on transistor size such that you have hyper-optimization of like late-1980s chips over centuries. Would be interesting to see a sci fi setting pursue that earnestly.
Another redemption of hollow world building I like is the theory that Harry Potter is obviously post-scarcity (they can conjure and replicate objects, magic the dishes into doing themselves, teleport from anywhere to anywhere etc) but governed by such a deeply ingrained network of rules of propriety and good behavior that the class hierarchy, private property, deference, human labor, a form of simulated capitalism (likely borrowed from muggles in a bizarre and twisted form of cultural exchange, along with the school express, the magic bus) etc are followed unquestioningly. This also explains why so many people would find muggle-born wizards deeply vulgar and an affront to their society, and therefore enhances the general story. (To wizard society, the idea that a “poor” family like the Weasleys could just conjure themselves a giant mansion with 500 rooms with magic would be like suggesting someone should just shit on the street whenever they need to go).
Harry Potter is set in the modern west, which is post scarcity in the meaningful sense- there is functionally no one who dies from lack of access to necessities. People still work for access to positional goods and luxuries. We can assume that this is just a human universal and wizards will do the same thing.
More options
Context Copy link
I feel like this is plainly inconsistent with the canon. We don't see the conjuration of everyday household items or food, and magical items such as wands and infinite-capcity containers are obviously scarce and valuable. And of course something like transmuting lead into gold is explicitly mentioned to be difficult if not impossible.
While manual labor and chores can obviously be automated with magic, there also isn't any mention of magical computing devices or AI, so professional work hasn't been made obsolete either.
You don’t need to conjure food or water when you can just Apparate to a fresh mountain stream or tree laden with fruit whenever you want (transatlantic teleporting is made out to be difficult, but the length of the UK between, say, Scotland and London is easy and common enough). At the world quidditch championship, the Weasleys also conjure up an entire camp the size of a small home from almost nothing, suggesting that shelter is also post-scarcity in every real sense.
Items imbued with certain magical essences that can seemingly only be created by human craftsmen are not abundant, sure. But other than wands, these are essentially luxury goods (an adult wizard has no need for a broom, and the other things that money is needed to buy are things like rare artifacts, magical candy and toys - presumably handmade - and so on). The financial system exists for the sake of itself. The magical night bus doesn’t need a driver, since magical objects can act and think for themselves many times in the series. It has one because it should have one, or something.
The same is true for white collar employment. Magical automation clearly exists (see the hate mail envelopes, the automation of memos in the ministry, automated magical maps, automated dictation tools / pens, interactive magical videos in picture frames and - most significantly - magical portraits, which are clearly generative AI trained on an artist’s impression of the subject, and which would appear to be capable of complex thought and therefore white collar labor), its use is governed by something other than possibility or efficiency.
Consider the aurors who trace misuse of magic. Are they actually necessary? The ministry has the ability to track, seemingly, every use of magic in all of England. If it doesn’t do so it is purely by choice. This is what I mean by propriety, the magical society is governed by its own code that involves this manual labor and a simulated quasi-market or capitalist economy in some aspects, with strict rules (like that you can’t conjure money) enforced arbitrarily.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link