This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
It's interesting that you bring up circumcision. I have two sons, am myself circumcised, and I can recall prior to my first son's birth, when I brought up the issue with the Japanese doctor who was at the time very possibly the one who would be the attending surgeon (as it turns out, it was another doctor altogether) I remember him looking at me with what I can only describe as a kind of uncomprehending loathing, probably the same way I would look at a Somalian midwife explaining to me the ins and outs of how she would circumcise a girl. He told me circumcision had no medical basis, and was "just a kind of superstition." He said he had never done one, wouldn't really know how, but could probably get someone to try it if I really wanted my son to have the procedure done (I obviously declined.) Interestingly at this hospital there were posters on the walls regarding 戌の日 or "day of the dog," which is the 12th day of each month in the traditional Japanese Shinto religion. In the fifth month of pregnancy on the day of the dog women are supposed to go to a shrine for some type of blessing. This was posted in the hospital on the wall. This is only one such tradition surrounding birth and children in Japan. The argumentative part of me considered bringing this up to the doctor, but I didn't. Obviously in practice going to a shrine for a blessing is qualitatively different from slicing off foreskin. in principle, I wonder.
Anyway it's a good illustration of a kind of basic value that some have and some do not--I used to ask people I was out with in Japan whether or not to have my sons circumcised, what they thought. All the gay men said Definitely do (a small sample--notably they were also American). Some heterosexual men also said yes, but others said no, and asked why I would even think about it. I didn't have much of an answer other than that it had been done to me, and it seemed normal to me, and that they (my sons) might wonder why I was different than they are (turns out they have never once asked about it. Which also makes sense. I can't imagine as a kid asking my dad about his dick.)
If the "system" is not sufficient to handle differences in values, what would be a solution? Just keeping certain people out? One would be screening for very specific values, I suspect. I also think about Japan and how I, as an immigrant, fit in here. I am one of those who tries to learn the language and behave, if not completely Japanese, at least in a way that doesn't actively annoy people. In certain areas (one city I pass through on my commute which is a type of hub to the airport) you have large areas of Vietnamese, Chinese, and other Asians living. It is a noticeably different vibe--louder, less clean, probably also to some degree more relaxed--and I suspect they have been housed there (via their rental agencies) purposefully to keep them contained. I have often found myself shaking my head at "all the damn foreigners" in parts of Japan where I frequent. The irony does not escape me.
More options
Context Copy link