This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Not only is Elon Musk not a Nazi, but nobody is Nazis. It was a mid century German nationalist movement. It has no connections to the right in America 80+ years later, and there is no reason that anyone would seek to emulate them at this point. They are just the losing side of a conflict in a long list of losing sides in history.
Even if you are “racist” and support “authoritarian” ideas, so were, idk, probably most governments in history. What is the connection to mid century Germans? “The left” obviously wants to call people Nazis to score political points, but it makes no longer makes any sense even from a far right perspective.
There are a small number of people who call themselves Nazis, worship Hitler(sometimes literally), think the Jews are behind everything, the Holocaust didn’t happen, and Nazis were the good guys. It’s fair to call them Nazis even if it isn’t literally accurate.
Even then, it's kind of a strange label. When people do that now, it's basically a historical LARP. The real Nazis weren't larping, they saw themselves as a very modern and revolutionary movement that would lead to the future.
More options
Context Copy link
The irony here is that the Nazi's themselves were a larp of another historical group. Perhaps it might help clear up the confusion if we started referring to the latter group as Neo-Neo-Romans instead.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Naziphobia is a major problem, and it really is an irrational fear of Nazis. Not because Nazis aren't rather deplorable, but because it involves seeing Nazis all around, secret Nazis, hidden Nazis, they're everywhere doing their Nazi things. The Nazis communicate with each other using cryptic signs and gestures, so one must be hyperaware and alert at all times for any word or gesture or action that looks or sounds like something a Nazi might do while plausibly denying they're a Nazi. They will not identify as Nazis, and they will deny they are Nazis. In fact, they may claim to hate Nazis, but you can't let them get away with it. You must call the Nazis out, run screaming from the Nazis, band together and then punch the Nazis.
There is nothing particularly unprecedented about this Naziphobia--it has obvious parallels--but it has been getting stronger and stronger my whole life, and it's essentially endorsed as a sensible concern by the mainstream left.
So far as I can tell, the actual MAGA right does not like Nazis. They still consider the Nazis the bad guys of WW2. However, Nazis are not seen as quite so uniquely evil. Communists are at least as evil, and besides many still recognize Satan as the worst evil. MAGA have little interest in emulating Nazis, and they have even less desire to communicate cryptically using Nazi symbolism except as an occasional joke. The idea that they would do such a thing is kind of offensive but mostly just bemusing. It's like accusing them of secretly owning slaves or something.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link