site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 13, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Your view of a hyperagentic ruling class relies on a one-sided interpretation: was a concession extorted through force, or freely given out of altruism/sentimentality? You see a man get mugged, and you interpret it as an act of charity because he did not fight to the death. He “enabled his nominal enemy.”

At the class analysis level, I don't see a functional difference between being forced and conceding. These are the same thing. You failed to summon superior organization capacity and are defeated.

Louis' failure isn't being a weak man per se, it's failing to make the right alliances and structuring a political movement against him through his actions.

Elite classes aren't beggars in the street, they're sovereigns in anarchy. If you get yourself to a position where you can be mugged, you will be. When animals get out-competed by one another we don't seek to introduce these silly moralistic components, I don't see how this should be any different. Machiavelli's foundational contribution to sociology is precisely that these do not matter and what we ought to be concerned with is the world as it is. Complaining that looking at the real object lionizes scoundrels like Cesare Borgia is missing the point.

Maybe you're just objecting to the characterization of the phenomenon. But whatever the cause, if an elite doesn't keep organizing its power (through the belief in its own political formula among other things), it loses it.

When animals get out-competed by one another we don't seek to introduce these silly moralistic components, I don't see how this should be any different. Machiavelli's foundational contribution to sociology is precisely that these do not matter and what we ought to be concerned with is the world as it is.

I don't disagree. I think brutality can, and often does work, even though it's evil. I just don't think it's a silver bullet.

While a progressive has a tendency to say stuff like 'people revolt when they are too oppressed', as if the just world was punishing rulers for their immorality, the reactionary, as a .... reaction, trying to overcorrect the previous lies, will then say 'people only revolt when they are not oppressed enough', which is also false.

people only revolt when they are not oppressed enough', which is also false

I understand what you're going for, but the moralistic language is again obscuring the matter.

I bet you yourself don't even disagree with Tocqueville's paradox if we don't couch it in such words.

I’m not sure it’s a paradox. You think rulers reforming is the sole cause of their downfall. I think changes in society (eg, wealth increase, weapons becoming more democratic (eg, guns vs cavalry)), reshuffling the underlying power relationships within society (ie, who would win a civil war), are largely causing both the reforms and the revolution. The ultimate cause of both is that the mugger gets a gun - first he extorts, then he shoots.

And these changes happen under the auspices of government (by which I mean society, not just the State).

Surely we can grant that it is difficult for rulers to predict where the technological landscape will go, but staying on top of the chaotic system is what ruling is.