This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This is genuinely one of the most confusing takes to me, and I kind of assume it is bordering on a social contagion.
A fraud in what way? I have a Tesla model Y. It is by far the best car I’ve ever driven, and I’ve driven many many cars that are substantially more expensive than this one.
I have a starlink and use it. It works, and when compared to its competitors, absolutely embarrassed them. They aren’t competitors.
SpaceX is clearly a real company which absolutely revolutionized space launches, and has eviscerated anybody who could reasonably claim to be a competitor. It isn’t even close.
As far as self driving: yeah actually my model Y does self drive, and I use it every single day. The “well actually it’s not self driving and it crashes into pedestrians!” YouTube hoaxes are 100% of the time people using autopilot as if it were self driving. It isn’t, and those people shouldn’t be doing that.
I just absolutely fail to see how anything Elon is doing is “fraudulent” especially since I use some of the products and they are almost indistinguishable from magic.
Well yes. But he promises turbo bonkers hypermagic with rainbow-shitting unicorns, and repeatedly swears it'll be released 2-5 years faster than turns out to be the case. And he totally milks his Iron Man/Weirdo Autistic Visionary/Space Messiah image for what are sometimes obviously small-minded purposes (and also to maintain absurd PE ratios). So he's a fraud relative to his own hyperbolic marketing, I guess?
Anyway, people just love to hate those who seem to have much more than them.
More subtly, some people here are blackpilled in a particular manner that prompts them to deny that in the current world (which they believe to be on net irredeemable) true doers and dreamers may achieve such abnormal prominence.
For my part, I have no problem accepting that Musk is exactly who he claims to be (but also not what he not-unsuccessfully attempts to hint at being). He's a strong, flawed man in the spirit of the greatest American capitalist champions – Rockefeller, Carnegie, Ford, Hughes... Fate strikes the strong man in the end. But it'll be an interesting ride.
More options
Context Copy link
I suppose sharing your opinion over the internet, and backing it up with arguments is how social contagion works, so I guess you're right on this one.
In the way he presents himself as someone he's not, and promises things he can't deliver.
That's cool. I never drove one, and I'm not into cars, so I can't judge, but I find it extremely unlikely it's so good that it justifies valuing the company more than all other auto manufacturers combined.
How well does it compare to a mid-range fibre-optic connection?
No it hasn't. The Falcon 9 is ok, but not mind blowing. The stuff that would be impressive is still just a promise that hasn't materialized.
Ok, hold up. They're hoaxes, because they're using a product called "Full Self Driving" as if it were capable fully driving he car by itself? You really don't see that as a tiny bit fraudulent?
Also Elon was promising us robotaxis by now. And whatever happened to the Tesla Truck that was supposed to beat rail on costs in a convoy scenario. How doesthe Hyperloop make any goddamn sense at all, and why did he lie about inventing it?
deleted
More options
Context Copy link
Wasn't there also something called "Full Self-Driving" way back in 2017?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link