This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
No, it bothers me that the supposedly smart people here on the motte waste IQ-time on blatant nonsense.
I dont think the last 7000 discussions we had on "what is gender?" was actually motivated by curiosity towards answering a difficult to solve problem.
Its a desperate attempt to find a signal in the noise because a bunch of people (who operate under extremely loose epistemological standards) said there was a signal.
Im bothered by people's lack of ability to seperate out the chaff.
I think you have it wrong regarding IQ. High IQ is predictive of novelty-seeking. It has zero to do with what is practical. If something does not interest me I just ignore or collapse it.
More options
Context Copy link
Understanding precisely what's going on with some stupid set of beliefs can be enlightening.
It can also be useful - if, hypothetically, said beliefs were held by the vast majority of the smartest, most influential, and most powerful people in your country / civilization (and also by most of the less smart, and less powerful people too). In that case, it's probably worth figuring out what they mean and why! Saying "lol this is dumb who cares" doesn't seem to help with that, or suggest ways to solve it.
I understand that "this is dumb who cares lol" can be used to hand wave away any discussion, and that a lot of important things might have seemed dumb in the past.
Fortunately in this case, it is very dumb evidenced by the fact that the theory is logically inconsistent in just about every level of analysis. Gender is infinitely malleable at the same time sex-change surgery is paramount? It's not like it hasn't proven itself to be NOT dumb, what pressing problem does the theory solve?
They need to come up with a better framework than "I can do whatever I want, and whatever I want is logically airtight"
Sure, but this is also true of 'all people are equal and we should love everyone', 'the Christian god exists and He is three persons co-equal in one substance', most schools of moral philosophy, and a lot of stuff people believe. My argument isn't "you should consider it because it might be right", it's "you should consider it because it's worth figuring out why people believe it" (same for all of the former). Also, it is currently winning.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link