On this being weaker. I would tend to agree but I learned a little. Critiquing your other post has more things.
“The Ukraine conflict is one of the clearest examples of good vs. evil in the past century"
Need to spend more time on why Ukraine isn’t good. Most just because hate the establishment like a Caitlin Johnston or Michael Tracey (who I loved on BLM riots for doing real research) and still follow to keep some twitter balance.
Spend way too much time talking about other wars. That just breaks down to whataboutism. Who cares about old wars. Prove Ukraine is bad not that other wars were also good or bad. I hate whataboutism as I think it’s usually wrong but here it does nothing for you.
It's not even the most egregious war currently being fought within 1000km of the Black sea. That infamy belongs either to the reignited Nagorno-Karabakh war where Azerbaijan and Turkey are trying to squelch the young democracy in Armenia, or the ongoing conflict in Syria where turkey is likewise trying to Squelch the increasingly autonomous Kurdistan and its various democratic movements ... We don't hear about these conflicts though, because Turkey is a NATO member and a keystone of Europe's treaties to keep migrants out.
“It's not even the most egregious war currently being fought within 1000km of the Black sea. That infamy belongs either to the reignited Nagorno-Karabakh war where Azerbaijan and Turkey are trying to squelch the young democracy in Armenia, or the ongoing conflict in Syria where turkey is likewise trying to Squelch the increasingly autonomous Kurdistan and its various democratic movements ... We don't hear about these conflicts though, because Turkey is a NATO member and a keystone of Europe's treaties to keep migrants out.“
Maybe more here. But probably it’s own post. Most Americans don’t know much about these wars. We ignore them because (1) lack any strategic importance to US (2) strategically important to allies (3). Too small to care. (4). Don’t have a natural ally to back. (5). Would be like Syria where we lack strategic capabilities unless we go full Iraq and commit US troops. Still could write about these comments individually as not many do.
“Was this what it was like in 2002-2003 when Afghanistan and Iraq were starting? Did every remotely public intellectual drop their standards this quickly? I remember the Anti-war movement being more prominent at the time... Was that only after the fact?“
America went too far in those places. Scores a small point to get reader to consider past mistakes. Still judge Ukraine on Ukraines merits. America got attacked then and we had 1 congressional no vote to Iraq War, Cheney lied and propagandized us. Not a key point and for an essay only serves purpose of getting the reader to consider they have overreacted before.
“Or is the Anti-war movement silent because this is Putin and he's now coded pro-trump and Anti-gay... (yet somehow everyone else in central Eurasia isn't)”
Just culture warring here. Doesn’t move argument.
“Putin is awful... don't get me wrong. But Ukraine is literally executing civilians for continuing to live in occupied areas, has shelled civilians since 2014, has banned every rival political party, banned a free press, banned its population from leaving, has banned a major linguistic minority from using its own language in business and school... Ukraine is one of the most authroitarian anit-democratic countries on earth: Comparable to Iraq under Saddam, Saudi Arabia, or even North korea in many respects... and this is what our leaders hold up as their ideal and model of democracy for the rest of us?“
This is only paragraph where you address any reason why Ukraine is not good. These need expanded to prove Ukraine is not good.
Banning civil liberties when a country is in all out war is fairly normal. You can expand here but when Ukraine is fighting for the right to exists most people think martial law is ok. You can’t have a debating society when a few hundred miles away (at times less) a guy has a gun to your head. If you want to make a point on civil liberties then you need to explain why martial law isn’t appropriate.
Shelling civilians and cutting water to Crimea are the only points to make that Ukraine is not good. The only time you at all mentioned your core thesis. Granted I will cite a Ukraine was sort of at war the entire time as justification but you won’t an entire essay with 5 words on Ukraine isn’t good and it’s your thesis.
not discussing the linked piece is actually ironic because the Air Defence piece is the exact kind of technical, non-culture waring, moving the discussion forward cerebral work that my rage fueled rant is criticized for not being.
Are you replying to a different post, or were there some massive edits?
This post is a pretty short survey of Cold War SAM systems, followed by brief speculation on the effectiveness of modern systems. It's a bit dry for the partisans, and a bit shallow for the engineers, but it's not exactly culture war fodder. None of the quotes are present.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
On this being weaker. I would tend to agree but I learned a little. Critiquing your other post has more things.
“The Ukraine conflict is one of the clearest examples of good vs. evil in the past century"
Need to spend more time on why Ukraine isn’t good. Most just because hate the establishment like a Caitlin Johnston or Michael Tracey (who I loved on BLM riots for doing real research) and still follow to keep some twitter balance.
Spend way too much time talking about other wars. That just breaks down to whataboutism. Who cares about old wars. Prove Ukraine is bad not that other wars were also good or bad. I hate whataboutism as I think it’s usually wrong but here it does nothing for you.
It's not even the most egregious war currently being fought within 1000km of the Black sea. That infamy belongs either to the reignited Nagorno-Karabakh war where Azerbaijan and Turkey are trying to squelch the young democracy in Armenia, or the ongoing conflict in Syria where turkey is likewise trying to Squelch the increasingly autonomous Kurdistan and its various democratic movements ... We don't hear about these conflicts though, because Turkey is a NATO member and a keystone of Europe's treaties to keep migrants out.
“It's not even the most egregious war currently being fought within 1000km of the Black sea. That infamy belongs either to the reignited Nagorno-Karabakh war where Azerbaijan and Turkey are trying to squelch the young democracy in Armenia, or the ongoing conflict in Syria where turkey is likewise trying to Squelch the increasingly autonomous Kurdistan and its various democratic movements ... We don't hear about these conflicts though, because Turkey is a NATO member and a keystone of Europe's treaties to keep migrants out.“
Maybe more here. But probably it’s own post. Most Americans don’t know much about these wars. We ignore them because (1) lack any strategic importance to US (2) strategically important to allies (3). Too small to care. (4). Don’t have a natural ally to back. (5). Would be like Syria where we lack strategic capabilities unless we go full Iraq and commit US troops. Still could write about these comments individually as not many do.
“Was this what it was like in 2002-2003 when Afghanistan and Iraq were starting? Did every remotely public intellectual drop their standards this quickly? I remember the Anti-war movement being more prominent at the time... Was that only after the fact?“
America went too far in those places. Scores a small point to get reader to consider past mistakes. Still judge Ukraine on Ukraines merits. America got attacked then and we had 1 congressional no vote to Iraq War, Cheney lied and propagandized us. Not a key point and for an essay only serves purpose of getting the reader to consider they have overreacted before.
“Or is the Anti-war movement silent because this is Putin and he's now coded pro-trump and Anti-gay... (yet somehow everyone else in central Eurasia isn't)”
Just culture warring here. Doesn’t move argument.
“Putin is awful... don't get me wrong. But Ukraine is literally executing civilians for continuing to live in occupied areas, has shelled civilians since 2014, has banned every rival political party, banned a free press, banned its population from leaving, has banned a major linguistic minority from using its own language in business and school... Ukraine is one of the most authroitarian anit-democratic countries on earth: Comparable to Iraq under Saddam, Saudi Arabia, or even North korea in many respects... and this is what our leaders hold up as their ideal and model of democracy for the rest of us?“
This is only paragraph where you address any reason why Ukraine is not good. These need expanded to prove Ukraine is not good.
Banning civil liberties when a country is in all out war is fairly normal. You can expand here but when Ukraine is fighting for the right to exists most people think martial law is ok. You can’t have a debating society when a few hundred miles away (at times less) a guy has a gun to your head. If you want to make a point on civil liberties then you need to explain why martial law isn’t appropriate.
Shelling civilians and cutting water to Crimea are the only points to make that Ukraine is not good. The only time you at all mentioned your core thesis. Granted I will cite a Ukraine was sort of at war the entire time as justification but you won’t an entire essay with 5 words on Ukraine isn’t good and it’s your thesis.
Please keep the commentary to the piece linked from my guest author... not an unlinked piece from me.
for those curious this is the piece he's discussing
.
not discussing the linked piece is actually ironic because the Air Defence piece is the exact kind of technical, non-culture waring, moving the discussion forward cerebral work that my rage fueled rant is criticized for not being.
More options
Context Copy link
Are you replying to a different post, or were there some massive edits?
This post is a pretty short survey of Cold War SAM systems, followed by brief speculation on the effectiveness of modern systems. It's a bit dry for the partisans, and a bit shallow for the engineers, but it's not exactly culture war fodder. None of the quotes are present.
Ya these are quotes from this piece
which as a rage fueled bonus content rant I'm perfectly fine with being more culture warring and lighter on content.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link